Is it only white middle class women who are GC?

Odd, isn't it, how often activists and politicians have told women that our time will come, just not yet. Lots of other worthy causes to get on with first, so will the women please just shut up and get on with making the tea and stuffing envelopes.

Male people with TQ identities won't get more equality by forcing the removal of it from female people. That weird kind of sacrifice helps no one, as witnessed by the mess of the past few years. And it's based on sexist thinking, not any real interest in inclusion or diversity.

We live in a patriarchal society where women and girls have huge pressure to comply with social conventions that turn us into second class citizens. Men are seen as the default human, and this has real life consequences for us, e.g. in health & safety and healthcare where the sexism inherent in the system costs us good health and even our lives.

Liberal feminism with its "all choices women make are feminist choices" and "everyone can be a feminist" and "feminism is about equality for everyone" messages is basically doing an "all lives matter" to the actual feminism that has a record of improving things for women.

Ok. Can I be both a feminist and an egalitarian?

Equality for everyone

So according to Margarita, feminism is not about women. It's about 'everyone'.

Has it not occurred to you, Margarita, that you might have misunderstood? Why would a movement called 'feminism' be about 'everyone'? If it's about everyone, why isn't it called 'personism' or 'humanism'?

Equality for everyone may be an admirable goal in its own right, but that's not what feminism is. Feminism is about the liberation of women and girls.

No other liberation movement is expected to extend out to being concerned with 'everyone'. It's recognised that it's fine, even necessary, for a group to come together and focus on their needs and rights without also looking at every other social issue or disadvantaged group in existence. But for some reason feminism gets the 'fight for everyone and everything' treatment.

Incidentally, this is why 'white middle class women' get disparaged so much. Because people don't recognise biological sex as a relevant axis of oppression - they're white and middle class, so they're advantaged. Being women? Why should that matter?

Marion Millar and JK Rowling are both notable "gender criticals" from 2021.

I won't name the town Millar lives but I understand it's rough and has a lot of poverty there. JKR is at the other extreme with multiple properties including a giant mansion that looks like a fairytale castle in the richest part of Edinburgh.

It depends on the person IMO. There will also be LGBT supporters in all areas and classes too.

And equality doesn’t mean males should benefit from programs put in place for females either. Because that delays females achieving equality.

I mean equality for everyone in the end, which may need giving some groups a little more help than others to get there.

I was thinking of young women like the brilliant Nehanda, of the many young women I've men at various GC events; of my friend's 16 year old and her mates who are setting up a girls-only feminist club at her school.

Also of , Keira Bell, and all the brilliant young women involved in RadicalGirlsss - see four of them here talking about the sexualisation of young migrant women

Just because you're out of touch with what's going on beyond your bubble doesn't mean they don't exist.

Equality for everyone

I think you will find that is egalitarian. Feminists are about ensuring female’s needs are considered. Sometimes that takes a view towards ‘equity’ not ‘equality’.

I fully believe ultimately on egalitarian goals but getting there does NOT mean acting as if females are equal.

When I'm interviewing that answer wouldn't meet out corporate standard on equalities Pie.

I asked my family once and they are all just like "if that [changing sex] is what some people want to do then that's fine with me" with nothing else to say.

What do you think feminism means Margarita?

How can you be a feminist and not critical of gender?

"Plenty of younger feminists about"

Yes but feminist per se doesn't mean "gender critical".

People who can see the unfairness in males competing in women's sport are not limited to white middle-class women. I don't know if any transwomen competitors are expected at the Commonwealth Games next year, but the more people see competitors like Laurel Hubbard the more disquiet there will be.

None of the WC people I know ( WC family, friends ,background) seem to give any of this much thought. It’s much more men are men, women are women and trans people are trans. End of. They don’t worry about pronouns and don’t seem to have come in contact with many people asking to have certain pronouns.
Maybe they just don’t have the time.

There's the thing that your brain doesn't finish maturing until you're late 20s, and I completely believe that looking back at my, and my friends lives.

Back in my 20s I thought feminism had won, that it was all good now, but that's because I could shrug off what little misogyny I was subjected to as banter (even the rape!). I didn't experience the really punching stuff until I had kids, then I looked back and it was like a veil had been lifted and it all clicked together.

Much like until last year I'd been in a 15 year abusive (mentally and financially) relationship, but like the boiled frog, I excused it all until I got out, and finally looked back and it was like the sun rising - illuminating how everything was a continued campaign to keep me in line.

I think older people have a lot more awareness of how trans status can be exploited by dangerous men.

It’s also fair to say that many
younger TRAs seem to be very loud and intolerant. Both my sons are GC (and have friends who are) but say that it’s very difficult, if not impossible, to express GC views, especially in a university, without being vilified.

I think middle class women may be more likely to articulate the arguments online and to organise petitions and letter-writing campaigns and all the great things we've seen over the past few years. Not that no working class women do it, but there seems to be a correlation.

It would be a big mistake to assume that this means working class women believe TWAW. Most of us don't. Most think it's daft and don't fall for any of the 'be kind, use the pronouns' stuff that ties in to some extent with middle class respectability. The trouble is that those I've discussed it with seem to think it's some weird fringe phenomenon confined to universities and the like, not a real problem. And even for those who know exactly what's going on, sometimes there are other, immediate life problems that have to take priority.

The discussion about the suffragettes is interesting. So many of my students assume that black women gained suffrage rights much later than white women in this country, and that the suffragettes were 'all middle class white women' and so this makes them unimportant or bad and not worth studying. It's a really common misconception and I can only guess that it comes from identity politics.

I’m working class in a very low paid job. In my area it’s not that there is a belief in TWAW, it’s more it’s a load of nonsense and got better things to worry about.

It’s middle class white kids that are very much TRAs, the same type of people who like to squat or are “anti-work”, communists etc....

I think pie you are spreading disinformation as usual.

It is interesting to consider the findings of two Yougov surveys.

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/12/22/cancel-culture-what-views-are-britons-afraid-expre

I believe there is a link to the first survey on this link too.

The first survey done earlier in the year found that age group you are referring to were the ‘least’ tolerant of other’s opinions. And this survey, released just before Christmas, showed just how little women in general felt safe from negative repercussions from giving their true opinions. Therefore, the message there is, generally women will only speak out if they are in a position that won’t cause them financial /personal hardship.

Who would that be? Most likely women older than the age group you refer to. Hence the people you refer to.

It is not rocket science when you look at the amount of abuse that Joanne Rowling has received. And apparently, it is not her words people like Nancy Kelly has issue with. Just the fact she even utters them from a position of power that makes her ‘transphobic’.

And great that you brought up the despicable behaviour of the crowd the day they abused, assaulted even and harassed a gay man for wearing apparel from the group that works to progress the need of those of the sexual orientations of lesbian, gay and bisexual. It was really appalling.

Of course, there will be a skew towards younger people there (although the proud instigators were not in that age group of I remember correctly). It was during a pandemic, AND some people have parental responsibilities meaning they would not be able to attend events such as that particular day. People with children do tend to be older that the age group you are referring too. (Hint: Look at the statistics for first time mothers ).

So, let’s look at this again.

The group you refer to is known to be the most intolerant group, and known to subject others to appalling abuse, harassment and even assault for daring to wear a logo of another group. Women in general are known to not discuss their true opinions openly about supporting their own rights.

Rather a totalitarian sounding age group isn’t it? Glad you brought it up.