Is it only white middle class women who are GC?

Yes, the complete confusion that Nokes seems to have spread with their interviews shows a rather limited understanding of just what they understood were the issues and the content of the presentations.

Shows more on how people can close themselves off to seeing reality if they believe in propaganda to the degree that Caroline Nokes obviously does. They cannot give a coherent interview that accurately describes the outcomes even.

I'd like to revisit the case of Karen White. While at New Hall in 2017, White sexually assaulted two women there.

Singlehandedly, White's crimes would have increased sexual assault figures in the female estate by 33-50% from the figures in 2012 and 2013.

Not to mention:

Evidence of political capture and political bias that renders that committee and its findings... well, shall we say problematic?

Evidence that TQ+ and women's issues need complete separation as TQ+ politics make it impossible to give equal consideration or balance to any group that the politics have conflict with the interests of

Evidence that what is now needed is a separate inquiry into female conflict of interest, needs and issues which focuses on female experience, female evidence and is led by those not focused on capture and redirection of anything female into TQ+ political ownership. Rather than an inquiry wholly dominated by TQ+ politics and interests, which regards female focused groups as hostile by their mere existence. Usefully, the evidence sessions were recorded and evidence this as much if not more than anything else.

#thisisntworkingforwomen

But very helpful to have it so demonstrated.

The group FWS say 80-95% of people who say they are trans choose to have no medical treatment at all – no surgery, no drugs, not even therapy

And their source for this statement is a submission from GIRES.
data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/women-and-equalities-committee/transgender-equality/written/19292.pdf

Well they obviously didn't impress the WEC.

Tell us again the make up of the committee, what it was for and the recommendations it made was significantly different from what had been seen previously?

Yes. The dissemination of the data shows that a higher proportion of trans people are in prison for sex crimes.

Not sure how barley can claim that so few are in jail for non-violent crime compared to the proportion in prison for sex crime.

I do look forward to proof of that.

1. Most women prisoners will probably never even come across a transwoman
2. if they do it's likely to be someone fiully transitioned
3. it's likely to be someone serving time for a non violent offence

That link says nothing about how many male prisoners are placed in female prisons.

It says nothing about how many of those male prisoners still have male genitalia (assuming that's what you mean by 'fully transitioned').

It says nothing about the offences that those male prisoners have been convicted of.

Try again.

Yep. You are right. I cannot quickly put my fingers on the evidence for the 95%.

However, you have also admitted you cannot support that the majority of transitioned males have their penis removed.

However, we have had a women who has experienced harassment and sexual abuse in jail by a transitioned male post details of her abuse here on MN.

Something you have not acknowledged at all. But maybe her experience does not count at all to some posters.

fairplayforwomen.com/penis/

Most if not all of my gay friends are against self ID. They also - like Matthew Parris who helped found Stonewall - think the movement is not only now militating against women's rights but undermining young people who might be gay but are now being persuaded they are trans. With all the uncertain but mostly irreversible medical procedures. And dictated by ancient "gender" tropes which means a young man who likes tutus, poetry and gymnastics is not "male" and a girl who likes football, science and boy's clothes is automatically not "female".

It's one of the most regressive movements of all time.

Yes most of my friends are white. My black family are more concerned about what is happening to women, gays (including trans) in their home countries.

Maybe this evidence presented to parliamentary WEC

committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

Some interesting numbers stated here that have not been discredited.

Please also take into account that where primary schoolchildren only spend weekdays between 8:30am and 3:30pm in school, and still end up knowing each other, prisoners are in prison all day, seven days a week, without time out for half-term holidays.

I find it implausible that a smaller population of incarcerated women will mostly never notice the male prisoners.

You made the claims. Now provide the evidence.

I've posted the criteria the MOJ use when considering transferring someone to the female estate.

Love the way the self identified safeguarding expert has now self identified as an expert on women in prison with evidently the same level of knowledge

The truth is the vast amount of women prisoners will probably never even come across a trans women, and if they do it's likely to be someone fiully transitioned and serving time for a non violent offence.

You should provide evidence for all three claims:

1. Most women prisoners will probably never even come across a transwoman
2. if they do it's likely to be someone fiully transitioned
3. it's likely to be someone serving time for a non violent offence

You made the claims. Now provide the evidence.

And 22 divided by 12 is...

If each prison of 270 women (i.e the size of a small primary school) has between 1 and 2 male prisoners in it, then I find it unlikely that incarcerated women "will probably never even come across a trans women".

Still waiting for the specific benefits for females of accepting males into any single sex spaces and services.

Please explain to me how placing male prisoners in the women's estate has improved these numbers.

Yes. Still waiting for the specific benefits for females in accepting males into the female prison estate.

Please provide evidence that disputes this.

It's generally accepted that if you make a claim then it's down to you to provide the evidence which supports it. I am not aware of any such evidence. In fact given no-one knows for sure how many trans women exist in the UK, let alone how many have had surgery, then such a claim cannot possibly be made.

It has also been cited that there are 125 transgender male prisoners in England and Wales. If all were placed in the women's estate and divided evenly across the facilities, that would be ten male prisoners per prison of 270 women.

But they haven't all been placed in the women's estate. About 22 of them have, after very strict vetting.

You disagree that 95% of males identifying as women keep their penises?

Ok.

Please provide evidence that disputes this.

And thanks for providing the criteria. However. ‘Fully transitioned’ means different things to different people. Let’s just stick with how many still have a penis to start with.

So, how many have their penis removed?

No deflections please.

And then, please provide the evidence that losing that penis has reduced the power and strength of that male compared to females? Because a male without a penis is still likely to be stronger than a female and present a safeguarding risk.

The truth is the vast amount of women prisoners will probably never even come across a trans women

There are 12 women's prisons in England and Wales, containing a population of 3, 273 women, according to this month's population spreadsheets.
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1041887/prison-pop-17-december-2021.ods

Assuming for the ease of calculations that women are evenly distributed across the prisons and that the prisons are of equal size, that is 272-273 women per prison.

It has also been cited that there are 125 transgender male prisoners in England and Wales. If all were placed in the women's estate and divided evenly across the facilities, that would be ten male prisoners per prison of 270 women.

I think the women would "come across" the male prisoners.

This is a report I read a while back, published in 2016. I'm certain you're familiar with the work of the Howard League, Barley, yes?

This is a briefing paper published by the Commission in Sex in Prison, established by the Howard League for Penal Reform to undertake the first ever review of sex inside prison.
howardleague.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Coercive-sex-in-prison.pdf

This is a table from it. Observe the number of assaults recorded in the women's estate in 2012 and 2013. Please explain to me how placing male prisoners in the women's estate has improved these numbers.

The truth is the vast amount of women prisoners will probably never even come across a trans women, and if they do it's likely to be someone fiully transitioned and serving time for a non violent offence.

Oh do stop, the majority of TW prisoners are incarcerated for sexual offences. TW show the exact same criminal tendencies as men who are not TW.

There are very strict vetting rules, which have rightfully been strengthened after procedues were not followed in the Karen White case. There have been no reported incidents since then.

Really, you sure about that? Could you provide the evidence? The vetting rules are not strict as was amply demonstrated in the Judicial Review against the MoJ and that woman prisoner had been sexually assaulted and not by Karen White.

Irrespective of the assaults women prisoners are not there to validate males who feel like a woman.

There should be no male prisoners whatever their professed identity or GRC status in the female prison estate. Either build a separate TW prison block within the male estate or place the TW in the existing male estate, and as most of them have committed sex crimes then they will be held on the existing separate wings with all the other male sex offenders.

All prisons should be made safer for the inmates, placing TW prisoners who are sex offenders into the female prison estate and offering up the women incarcerated there as potential victims has made the female prison estate far more dangerous for the women in there, again the Judge in the Judicial Review stated that fact.

And yes, physical transition is one of the criteria the prison service looks at when decided where to place a trans prisoner.

The criteria used for assessing the potential risks of placing a trans women in a women's prison are as follows:

(*indicates critical factors)
• *Offending history, including index offence, past convictions and intelligence of
potential criminal activity- e.g. credible accusations.
• *Anatomy, including considerations of physical strength and genitalia;
• * Sexual behaviours and relationships within custodial/residential settings;
• *Use of medication relating to gender reassignment; and use of medication generally;
• *Past behaviour in custody, the community, in the care of the police, or in the care of
prisoner escort services;
• *Intelligence reports;
• *Evidence of threats towards others
• *Mental health and personality disorder;
• Learning disabilities or difficulties;
• Substance misuse.

You can view the current policies here: assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/863610/transgender-pf.pdf