Is it only white middle class women who are GC?

When we safe guard children we accept that the majority of men are not a risk.
However since we also know that the majority of those posing risk are men, we take a broad brush approach.
The vast majority of men accept this.
They don’t seek to be in those spaces where children are at risk. They are aware it is wrong even if they know they lose no threat.

But that logic/respect is now being eroded.

the real fear is of predatory men, not of transwomen

This is nonsense. The real fear is of male violence.

At what point does a man become a transwoman? How do you write that into law and policy? It's nonsense.

And in any case, the real fear of male violence isn't the only issue. The issue is women's privacy and dignity and desire for a place away from men, however they identify, whatever stage of soi disant "transition" they are at, and regardless of what men think about that.

My point is that we need to fight evil men not TW.

And what do you do if and when the "TW" IS the evil man? Because it's now open season for any evil man to do that. Can't you see that?

Pigletjohn :o

@QueenPeary makes the critical point though: it’s freedom from the need to worry that’s so important.

My point is that we need to fight evil men not TW.

I don't have a problem with it. If a man has an evil intent he'll access women only spaces without asking anyone's permission.

@QueenPeary

You must be mistaken.

Yesindeedy has told you what you really mean, and what women actually want.

There should be a word for that.

"The majority of women of colour at the time had to wait another ten years to get the vote."

I think the lag between the 1918 and 1928 Acts related to age and class rather than ethnicity as such. In 1918 women had to be over 30 and either own property of a specific value or be married to a man who did.

Ethnic minority women would most likely be over-represented among those who didn't meet the property qualification - though the minority ethnic population was small and male-heavy at the time (seamen from China, Africa, West Indies).

But the primary determinant was class: prominent Asian women involved in the suffragette movement included Princess Sophia Duleep Singh, the daughter of the last Maharajah of the Sikh Empire.

Oh and lastly, it's not just about the risk of attack. It's about having a safe space away from potential attack, discomfort, intimidation and just the presence of unknown males, which for most women heightens anxiety and fear. And for some is not allowed in their culture/religion so they are absenting themselves and missing out. I'm not even in that category but I'm also absenting myself from women's activities that say TW are welcome, because it's not the same. Women as a class are in danger from / have generally had bad experiences with men as a class, and a female-only space lets you relax. Transactivism demands that even talking about female-only experiences with a TW there is condemned, so that's out too.

But hey what do women's feelings, fears, need for safety and community matter. Not a jot when there are male demands to consider.

Going into the wrong toilet/changing room is never going to be considered a major crime by most people.

Mainly because voyeurism isn't taken seriously by most men.

the real fear is of predatory men, not of transwomen

Well yes. Of course the real fear is of predatory men, but a) how are you supposed to be able to tell - policing someone's inner thoughts is even harder than policing their sex. So these policies mean predatory men have carte blanche to enter any space previously reserved for women for protection from exactly those men.

And b) depending on your definition, it's possible to be both a transwoman and a predatory male. Look at all the TW who threaten GC women with rape and murder.

If a man wants to be predatory, he'll do it
That may be the case, and no I can't stop a determined predator from entering a woman's space - but generally everyone knowing that's not OK makes it harder - staff, police, women in a group, other, decent men are likely to step in. Predators are less likely to try it, knowing all this. Changing policy so it's officially allowed is a huge problem because it's now basically an open invitation and staff and police are being trained to take the man's side.

And again, it's a shit argument. If a burglar is determined to burgle my house they probably can. If a murderer is determined to kill me they probably can. Does that mean we should therefore give up all laws against these things, security and measures to protect ourselves? No.

If a man wants to be predatory, he'll do it, I'd suspect, without worrying greatly (or even at all) about the minor crime of using the wrong toilet in order to commit the major crime of being preying on a woman.

Do you take the position that as Safeguarding cannot ever completely mitigate risk we should dispense with it all together? The loopholes in DBS and identity checking systems for those working with children and/or Vulnerable Adults which were exploited by predatory male sexual offenders is subject of current thread. There is obviously no suggestion by any sensibly-minded adult that we should stop using DBS and identity checks
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4303105-Sex-offenders-free-to-abuse-children-after-changing-ID

And ... secondly ... a transwoman will prioritise her physical safety over getting caught committing the minor crime of going into the wrong toilet or using women's changing room. Who wouldn't?

'I was sexually assaulted in a women's prison... by a fellow inmate with male genitalia'
(extract)
"Jail should have been a place free from the predators who had sexually assaulted and raped her in her childhood, but the terrifying presence looming over her suggested anything but.

'The look in her eyes was frightening,' Amy says, her voice quiet but assertive. 'She leered at me before lunging forward and grabbing my breasts hard. She squeezed them and I cried out in pain. I was terrified she would rape me.'

The prisoner who sexually assaulted Amy — we cannot legally identify her, so we shall call her J — is a transgender woman, with a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC), and therefore referred to by the female pronoun, but still had male genitalia.

Amy was equally well aware that J still had male genitalia because she often intimidated her and fellow female prisoners at HMP Bronzefield in Ashford, Middlesex, by exposing them.

Moreover, J was serving time for a serious sexual assault on a child and was clearly a danger to other inmates. Yet she had secured a coveted job as a cleaner at the prison gym where Amy also worked. And it was while she was in the gym's lavatory block that J assaulted her in 2017. (continues)
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9819631/I-sexually-assaulted-womens-prison-fellow-inmate-male-genitalia.html

current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4304592-DM-article-interview-with-female-attacked-in-prison

Why should woman and girls not prioritise our physical safety as well as privacy and dignity by insisting that all males are excluded from female single sex intimate spaces?

sorry that should be not to be clocked as male

how to police whatever laws were hypothesised to be introduced on the issue.

Yes, policing this is very difficult once you have a system where there are men who actively want to get into women's spaces as validation, and those who want to take advantage of that.

It used to be that a very small number of male transsexuals were tolerated on the basis that they knew they weren't really female, it was rare, they usually made a huge effort to to be clocked as male nor to make women uncomfortable. I have to say I never really understood why it was OK even then, or why men who wanted to be women never seemed to emulate normal women. But it was a relatively minor issue and if anyone had tried that and then visibly got their cock out it would have been clear that that was not OK.

What we have now is a TRA movement that features many MRA-like aspects and involves a lot of men who just want to be in women's spaces to intimidate, as a power trip, as a turn-on or even worse nefarious reasons, like sexual assault - and that is being encouraged. So of course it's bringing out the worst in any man with that tendency.

In the past, societal pressure and not wanting to be seen as a perv kept most men out of women's toilets unless accidentally. Now it's like a fun challenge. I read a think by a teenage girl in the US who said the girls' toilets at school were full of gangs of boys staring at and harassing the girls then just saying "I'm non-binary so you can't do anything".

But the fact that it's hard to put that regrettable situation back in the bottle does not mean it's OK for women and girls.

@Yesindeedydoodey

Actually:

"To take people opposed to men demanding access to single-sex womens spaces at their word..."

Define trans woman though. If it’s ‘who I say I am’ then can’t you see the problem there?

... To add: to take people opposed to transwomen using women's toilets/changing rooms at their word: the real fear is of predatory men, not of transwomen, per se. (Obviously - to say otherwise would open them up to the charge of being transphobic). Going into the wrong toilet/changing room is never going to be considered a major crime by most people. If a man wants to be predatory, he'll do it, I'd suspect, without worrying greatly (or even at all) about the minor crime of using the wrong toilet in order to commit the major crime of being preying on a woman.

And ... secondly ... a transwoman will prioritise her physical safety over getting caught committing the minor crime of going into the wrong toilet or using women's changing room. Who wouldn't?

So that's what she'd do ... unless she were to make the wrong assumption of which toilet she'd be safest to use - and were to go into a women's toilet/changing room, and got beaten up there - by a woman/women. (Yes, of course there have been cases of that.)

(PigletJohn the DIYguy?) haven’t seen you for a while.

I don’t want men in all female spaces irrespective of whether they have their cocks out.

@Yesindeedydoodey

What is the point you wanted to make with your question?

Was it "It is sometimes possible for a man to disguise himself as a woman?"

Or did you mean to convey something else?

And yet the personal experience of women such as myself who have experience of transwomen using women’s toilets and can and do say from personal experience transwomen do not act like women in toilets and are sometimes very scary in their behaviour are disregarded

Of course they are . Vulva owners don't count.

Oh and the photos.

Yes I would think #1 was male, and I know Buck (not personally - definitely not professionally) and have seen the photos of when they were a female fashion model. Also Scott Newgent - I would clock Scott as female (something about the eyes), also was a very beautiful woman.

Sex is a funny old thing isn’t it...