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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is it only white middle class women who are GC?

643 replies

Ziegfeld · 24/07/2021 19:27

I recently summoned courage to have “the talk” with an old friend who is gay. I wanted to know his current thoughts on sex based rights, and I thought (as we are old friends) even if we disagreed we could have a civilised conversation about it.

Unfortunately I think he called me transphobic about five minutes into the conversation when I asked, so if we say let’s have self ID, how do we tell whether someone genuinely believes themselves to be a TW or is a man simply announcing he is a woman solely for the purposes of accessing women-only spaces for bad intent. ( His answers to that were “well we need safeguarding” and “there are hardly any TWs, this isn’t a real concern” and “well ideally we should all just have gender neutral changing rooms”)

Some more things were said by both of us which I won’t go into here because I am sure we’ve all heard them before.

But then he said that it’s only white middle class women (like me) who have a problem with self ID and allowing TW access to women’s spaces. He said that working class women and women of colour have no problem at all with it.

I don’t think this is true - look at Allison Bailey for example. But I would be interested to know what other MNers think. Is this a race and class issue? Or is it that white middle class women tend to have more platforms to speak out than other women?

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Helleofabore · 29/07/2021 00:44

oneEpisode

The amount of prejudice, ignorance of the lives of women and hate in that post is quite astounding isn’t it? All because people disagree with them. And ask for evidence for their wild claims.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/07/2021 00:43

By 'males who identify as females', you mean transwomen.

Well yes, that is the definition Confused

OneEpisode · 29/07/2021 00:24

I only know one person who I know buys the actual paper Daily Mail. They can afford to buy it once a week (a particular puzzle) and then read it all.
This woman has had a life of violence and poverty and has survived to now have a small amount of safety.
I thought of her.
squealing, affronted, over-privileged, stuffed-up, Daily Mail - reading Karen who just must cast herself as a 'victim', despite the fact that no one has oppressed her in any way whatsoever.

WouldBeGood · 29/07/2021 00:04

All women are women, no matter their colour. All men are men.

TalkingOutYerArse · 29/07/2021 00:04

@Yesindeedydoodey

Reach? We know not but do keep showing yourself up dear little MRA.

Helleofabore · 29/07/2021 00:00

Oh. And add that not only accusing women wanting single sex spaces as racists, but the very comparison itself is arguably, you know, racist as fuck to say trans women are women like black women are women.

Really not sure how much more trope you can roll out. But you did quite well covering so much in tonight’s posts.

But, we are still waiting for the statistics on female violence. Towards other females in toilets and towards males who are in the female toilets.

Because that might help with credibility a bit.

Helleofabore · 28/07/2021 23:54

This is getting utterly ludicrous. Women basically aren't in danger of transwomen in toilets - in the same way as white women weren't in danger of black women in toilets back in the good old days of Jim Crow in the USA, despite what the frothing fruitcake Jim Crow supporters used to blither on about. It's childish nonsense. Grow up. They're in the toilet to have a pee and then get out of it as quickly as they possibly can before they have to deal with any squealing, affronted, over-privileged, stuffed-up, Daily Mail - reading Karen who just must cast herself as a 'victim', despite the fact that no one has oppressed her in any way whatsoever. It's pathetic. Just about the most ludicrous, contemptible, 'First World problem' I've ever come across.

I think I can call bingo here.

Accusation of racism
Some pretty clear misogyny, classism and ageism carried in that ‘Karen’
They just want to pee
Females are more voilent than transwomen
Females need to be human shields
You are all childish
It doesn’t matter what the law says, they will use them anyway
So what if a predator dresses up to abuse/assault women, it is just the one

And yet, not one shred of evidence. And not once acknowledging the needs of vulnerable and traumatised women. And not once acknowledging that girls and women also have the right to privacy away from male people (all males) and dignity too.

And yes, transwomen need privacy and dignity along with safety too. However, their needs do not take priority over female’s needs. Again, if they feel unsafe in the male facilities they need to not only campaign to change the behaviour of males to make it safe in the male facilities, or campaign for their own spaces.

The very nature of making female spaces ‘mixed sex’ means some females will be excluded from the spaces set up for their needs. Quite a misogynist take to ignore that.

Deliriumoftheendless · 28/07/2021 23:47

“A big girl did it and ran away.”

334bu · 28/07/2021 23:45

Do transwomen have no sense of self preservation? If they have, why are they risking life and limb in female toilets? Why are they not campaigning against female violence against transwomen? Why are no MPs bringing this up in the House? What are the Police doing about this?

Helleofabore · 28/07/2021 23:37

How often do you think that's happened as compared to, say, a bona fide, born-as-a-woman woman - in a dress, to boot - beating up some other woman in a women's toilet? Not flashing at a woman, mind you, but actually beating one up?

I don’t know. But I would certainly love some statistics that prove what you say.

Helleofabore · 28/07/2021 23:36

Full of ignorant and unpleasant but nonetheless splendidly smug assumptions but, hey, I'll play: By 'males who identify as females', you mean transwomen. And no, of course they respect women, or there'd be actual, repeated incidents of transwomen attacking non-transwomen in toilets which, of course, there isn't. However yes, transwomen will keep using women's toilets, despite the law, because they'll assume - perhaps disgracefully in your view - that it's their right to have a pee without being beaten up.

Please get my quote correct at least. “By 'males who identify as females', you mean transwomen”. I distinctly said males who identify as women. If they are identifying as ‘female’ they are not following the current rhetoric that transpeople and their allies are not denying biological reality.

Your ‘And no, of course they respect women,’ does not then match up with ‘will keep using women's toilets, despite the law’.

So, firstly on what authority do you speak for transwomen? And secondly, thanks for the honesty. That even if the law changed males who identify as women would continue to use female single spaces. Because that clearly states that they would not be respecting women at all. And that anything that is said to the contrary should be considered lies? Is that really what you mean? Because that is the only interpretation of a group of males using female single sex spaces despite a law change. That they do not respect females and the needs of females.

because they'll assume - perhaps disgracefully in your view - that it's their right to have a pee without being beaten up.

It is not any female’s role in life to protect males. We are not human shields. We are not support humans. If males need protection from other males, then they need to campaign for their own safe spaces. In fact, some males who are trans are campaigning for that very thing. Because, it is only SOME males who believe they have the right to female single sex spaces.

Which is a great thing isn’t it? Because according to you, females are assaulting males in the female toilets. So, they are certainly not safe there. Why are they there again?

Although, we still would like those UK statistics please. Bonafide independent and verified or official crime statistics only. Please do not bother with any collected by a lobby group via self reporting as they are rather unreliable. As we have seen from other statistics they release.

littlbrowndog · 28/07/2021 23:30

Heavens imagine jus5 writing that racist stuff on here yesindody

That’s terrible things to say

northstars · 28/07/2021 23:27

Women basically aren't in danger of transwomen in toilets - in the same way as white women weren't in danger of black women in toilets

Are you really saying transwomen are women in the same way black women are women? Are you fucking joking? That is bloody offensive and you have some nerve coming here to tell off women!

littlbrowndog · 28/07/2021 23:23

Imagine not being able to vote just cos you were a women

Not so long ago reading ths thread.

Imagine not wanting to vote as a woman no one recognises what women are anymore

Deliriumoftheendless · 28/07/2021 23:17

Sorry yesindeedy I can’t get your link to these assaults on transwomen to open. Can you post them again?

Helleofabore · 28/07/2021 23:15

That is, women beat up transwomen in women's toilets - that's happened often. But transwomen attacking women in women's toilets ... that's far rarer.

And you will have some statistical proof relevant to the UK for those assertions for us to peruse?

Please do link it up. We like facts on this board not emotive and manipulative hyperbole. Because we get enough of that and it is beyond tired.

SmugglersHaunt · 28/07/2021 23:14

He said that to put you on the defensive and make you feel bad. He sounds like a prick

Yesindeedydoodey · 28/07/2021 23:11

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

IAmNotAClownfish · 28/07/2021 23:08

So where's the proof of transwomen being beaten up by women in toilets, surely if it happens often there should be an easily available link?

dottypencilcase · 28/07/2021 23:08

Because Black/women from other races/ethnicities have enough shit defending themselves in other areas to start fighting another cause that is pretty much well defended by another group of women. I'm not white and I'm GC but if I ever said that, people would assume I've been conditioned to think this because of my culture/religion/husband, etc. and not because I can think for myself. Fuck off to all that. I'm going to carry on fighting racism first since that's something that directly impacts me and my family on a daily basis. Your friend is a dick.

Yesindeedydoodey · 28/07/2021 22:49

"Still pushing the 'women do it too' angle I see."

Well, no, it's more like women do it only. That is, women beat up transwomen in women's toilets - that's happened often. But transwomen attacking women in women's toilets ... that's far rarer.

"Have we covered off the 'but the males who identify as women will simply keep using them' point yet? The one that basically states that those males have no respect for women or laws or social mores despite stating that they just want to pee. That is always an interesting one to see. Some prominent activists push that particular point at lot."

Full of ignorant and unpleasant but nonetheless splendidly smug assumptions but, hey, I'll play: By 'males who identify as females', you mean transwomen. And no, of course they respect women, or there'd be actual, repeated incidents of transwomen attacking non-transwomen in toilets which, of course, there isn't. However yes, transwomen will keep using women's toilets, despite the law, because they'll assume - perhaps disgracefully in your view - that it's their right to have a pee without being beaten up.

They aren't going to give a flying one about the silly, irrational sensitivities of transphobics, nor laws that are produced by such people. They're going to do what's most likely to be physically safe for them. Do you see how that works? I mean, please do wheedle and whine, as much as you like, about people 'respecting the law'. But people will, in general, do what keeps them physically safe, before they'll follow the law. They'd be stupid to do otherwise. You would be stupid to demand that they do otherwise.

TalkingOutYerArse · 28/07/2021 19:35

@Yesindeedydoodey

" And again, it's a shit argument. If a burglar is determined to burgle my house they probably can. If a murderer is determined to kill me they probably can. Does that mean we should therefore give up all laws against these things, security and measures to protect ourselves? No."

Fine - make the laws against transwomen using women's bathrooms even stronger, then. Make them as strong as you like. In reality, they won't make a bit of difference, will they? Attacks by transwomen in women's toilets are a vanishingly rare occurrence and nobody can think of a sensible way of policing it.

The law doesn't like to be made to look like an ass, though. Those involved in making it try to be careful in that way. Thus there isn't a law against, say, leopards using women's toilets, on account of leopards very rarely break into women's toilets (in the UK, anyway) and even if they did, the law could do nothing to stop it. Predators are like that. ;)

I think some common sense and realism needs urgently to be injected into this (largely non-) issue. We're being asked to think of a predatory sort of man deliberately dressing up in women's clothing, with a wig and some make up too, presumably, for some reason believing that a women's toilet is the best place to target women. Really, think of that: predatory sorts of men are generally the sorts who won't even wear pink tee shirts for the 'shame of it'.

But OK, let's assume there are such men. We're thinking of a daylight toilet attack, since we could assume that at night, when there are very few people around, and the toilet in question is one of the few that's unlocked at night, there'd be no need for a man to disguise himself as a woman. So: there's this man, dressed as a woman, who attacks a woman in a women's toilet ... and assumes his disguise won't be noted and reported ... and the police won't be able to pick him out in a crowd as he runs off afterwards (hopefully for his sake not in heels)?

No, I don't think so. I'm not a predatory man but if I were ... to be honest, I actually can't think of sillier way of doing my preying on women.

Frankly, if you really want transwomen to be kept out of women's toilets, your best bet isn't the law, it's to rely on transphobic women - because cases of women beating up transwomen in women's toilets are somewhat less rare than the reverse. That's perhaps why transwomen avoid using public toilets for men or women as much as they possibly can.

news.stv.tv/north/hunt-for-man-in-dress-who-flashed-at-schoolgirl-and-woman?amp&__twitter_impression=true

No thinking needed. Predatory men DO go to the lengths of 'putting on dresses' for their perversions and sexual assaults on women and girls.

ScreamingMeMe · 28/07/2021 18:35

Tommy Robinson is middle class...

I'd suggest that working class people could also be scathing of "looney left" policies because they have more important things to worry about.

Anyway this is becoming a complete derail now so that's the last post I'm making on the matter.

TheWeeDonkey · 28/07/2021 18:17

@Ultimatecougar

Many working class people are very scathing of any "looney left" nonsense which includes Trans rights. Unfortunately they are often just as scathing about racial, sexual issues and especially in the older generation are still quite homophobic.
Shitting on working class people and treating them all like ignorant knuckle draggers.

What a unique and original attitude.

Deliriumoftheendless · 28/07/2021 17:24

I doubt there’s any more racism with in the wc than the mc but I suspect it comes out in different ways.

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