Menopause Cafe confusion

Why should women have to leave the group because men make them feel uncomfortable? This is where “inclusion” leads, to the very people who are supposed to benefit from the “support” being excluded.

I did mention this. It isn’t us who make the rules that is Rachel Weiz from the Menopause Cafe. We are just one of the many cafes.
I am going to discuss this situation of some women feeling uncomfortable with men being allowed to join.
Yes if a women only group was requested this could be set up like the trans only group or a men only group but I believe it would need to be called something different to a Menopause Cafe. Maybe a Menopause Discussion Group and wouldn’t be advertised on the Menopause Cafe website. 😊

I agree it wasn’t the words it was the tone but actually that isn’t my main point. I was explaining why men and younger people should be allowed for genuine reasons. Really appreciate that women still feel uncomfortable speaking in front of men but actually on Zoom it is much easier to leave if you feel uncomfortable with anyone in the group and we do make sure everyone either shows themselves on screen or speaks. We remove people who join and don’t speak, show their video or tell us on the chat why they can’t do either of these things. 😊

If we don’t invite men into this conversation that we will continue to think we need to hide away our ‘women’s problems’ as if they are something that men shouldn’t be troubled with. In allowing men to join we are inviting them to understand how difficult the menopause can be for many women and to open up the conversation.

You are conflating two different and incompatible things. Yes, men need to be educated on the menopause. Specific training can be arranged for this (as it is for managers in my workplace). Allowing them to come alone to a space where women seek support, and have those women feel they are being gawped at, is not appropriate. I simply wouldn’t attend this kind of event (and I’m having severe perimenopause symptoms). I’m not a learning opportunity for a man, and I don’t feel comfortable discussing my symptoms in front of men. Separate out the aims of educating men and supporting women and provide tailored events for each.

@VictoriaK71 Reading this thread I think it has confirmed this as there are some (not all) quite negative comments about trans men who have a womb on here which makes me sad.

Are we looking at the same thread? I can't see any 'quite negative' comments about any biological female attending the Menopause Cafe.

The only caveat I saw was that as transmen may have their bodies put into menopause at a different age and for specific reasons (if they have their female reproductive system surgically removed for identity purposes) they might benefit from meetings more specific to their needs.

In fact it was suggested that you could state that it is open to women and transmen was to highlight how you could be inclusive of all biological females. Or is it aiming to also be inclusive of biological males of any gender? I think that would be a sticky wicket for many women. You might then get women feeling a bit icky having irrelevant spectators as such.

Victoria, from your comment, you're looking to provide a trans specific space - fab. Are there any plans to provide a female single sex space also?

Or will there be a general 'all ages and genders' group (for which men are welcome, even if so far, there haven't been any male attendees) and a specific trans group. I'd be interested to know what would happen if there was also a request for a female single sex group?

I’ve reread this thread & I can’t see any negative comments about transmen. Not one. All everone has said is that transmen may well need a different group either because it would be more comfortable for them. Ice seen absolutely no one say transmen should be excluded

People have said men shouldn’t be allowed. Transmen are women and therefore fine. TW are men and therefore not fine.

I think suggesting anyone has said otherwise is pretty unfair

Very well put thank you.

It is because like the Death Cafe model it is about inclusion to discuss a subject that is often thought of as taboo and not discussed openly. If we don’t invite men into this conversation that we will continue to think we need to hide away our ‘women’s problems’ as if they are something that men shouldn’t be troubled with. In allowing men to join we are inviting them to understand how difficult the menopause can be for many women and to open up the conversation. As I said it would be a brave man to join for the wrong reasons. If they thought it was a good idea to come along and snigger in the side lines about women discussing their vaginas they really wouldn’t last 2 seconds and would soon be wanting to leave 🤣.

I just felt sad about the tone of this comment. I understand that they are not discriminating or anti trans but knowing trans people who find life very difficult I felt it was not very supportive. Of course we would not police words people could use.

“I don’t mind who wants to go along to an event as long as the content of the event and the language used doesn’t end up being policed, with “menopausal women” replaced by “menopausal people” and “vaginal atrophy” becoming “front hole atrophy” etc.

I wouldn’t dream of going along to an event specifically set up to talk about the needs of those who’ve been through ‘sex reassignment surgery’ and insist they use only words that I deem suitable, so as long as there’s none of that bullshit and the menopausal and peri women in attendance are able to speak freely about their own experiences in relation to their female sexed bodies, fine. The minute there was a whiff of the trans agenda taking over I’d be out of there in a shot“

@VictoriaK71
‘Anyone with a womb’
Can’t you see how dehumanising this phrase is? It’s such a backwards step to use such phrases to describe something that only females possess. It’s such a backwards step to pretend to females that they are really men because they say so. We need to be totally honest - a female can present any way they choose, give themselves a male name, male or they/them pronouns but they will always be female.
I would absolutely welcome any female to a workshop on menopause, no matter their age, sexual orientation or how they present. Males? No. They don’t belong.

Yes, I think that the point about transmen is that they are of course welcome, but that (as you say) the regular format Menopause cafe might not be right for them and they might welcome a separate space that takes into account their specific needs given the direct relationship between menopause and having a woman's body.

I have a question. Why are men invited? I don't understand that at all. If men need support then surely they can set up their own group. What woman wants to discuss their menopause with men they don't know?

Also: which comments about transmen bother you, Victoria? Hasn't everyone said they are happy for all females to be there? Not sure why that makes you sad?

I have just come across this thread. I am one of the Menopause Cafe South London organisers and it is me who does all the social media.
The reason I came across this thread is that I was googling trans Menopause Cafe to see if there are any. After speaking to my friend who is a trans man I wanted to see how best to provide a safe space for anyone with a womb to discuss the menopause. He said that trans folk may feel more comfortable and safer in their own group because not everyone is as accepting. Reading this thread I think it has confirmed this as there are some (not all) quite negative comments about trans men who have a womb on here which makes me sad. My intention is to create safe spaces for people to feel comfortable to talk freely.
You are right the Menopause Cafe model does insist that we do need to be open to allow any gender or age to the cafes. So if a trans specific Menopause Cafe was set up we would have to check with the founder to see if it could still be called a Menopause Cafe. It might have to have a slightly different title as it is not in line with the Menopause Cafe rules.

I will discuss the views on here about men being allowed making some women uncomfortable with Rachel Weiz the founder. If anyone wants to email to find out what she says email me on [email protected].
Funnily enough we were discussing about men being able to join at the one we had yesterday. In the two years I have been co-running the Menopause Cafe South London we have had a couple of men sign up in Eventbrite but I always email them back to find out about why they want to come before sending login details and both times I haven’t heard back.
I think it is very important for all men to understand the menopause and so if there was a man very concerned about their partner and wanting to find out how they can support them we would allow them to join. As I said this has never happened so if you are thinking of coming please do as it has always been an all women environment. The next one is on 30th April at 3pm GMT on Zoom.

I must say that I totally disagree about limiting the age as I believe the menopause should be taught in schools as keeping women in the dark about what really happens until it does causes a lot of distress. We actively encourage young women to come so they can be fully educated in the menopause so that their journey can be an informed one. Also there are cases of early menopause in women as young as 15 so it is very important to keep this open.
Feel free to ask me anything on here or email. Thanks Victoria

Men obviously don't "get it" as women do, but if they are living with a menopausal
women they may well be interested and want to support their partner and I think its a good thing that there is somewhere they can go together if they choose. It is based on the Death Cafes, yes. Obviously some women prefer a women only organisation for discussions of this nature but this space is designed to be for both and has been very successful. I've never actually been to one but I'd happily take DH and chat to other women and their partners.

I assume they’re based on the death cafe model which makes sense to be open to everyone

I don’t want to discuss my menopause issues in front of men so it’s not for me

somewhere people can go to to chat to other people who get it

How can any man 'get' the menopause?

I don’t mind who wants to go along to an event as long as the content of the event and the language used doesn’t end up being policed, with “menopausal women” replaced by “menopausal people” and “vaginal atrophy” becoming “front hole atrophy” etc.

I wouldn’t dream of going along to an event specifically set up to talk about the needs of those who’ve been through ‘sex reassignment surgery’ and insist they use only words that I deem suitable, so as long as there’s none of that bullshit and the menopausal and peri women in attendance are able to speak freely about their own experiences in relation to their female sexed bodies, fine. The minute there was a whiff of the trans agenda taking over I’d be out of there in a shot

I have no desire to discuss menopause with other women's husbands.

The Menopause Cafes are a registered charity, run in a particular format and they are open to men and women, always have been. They are literally just a cafe where people go along to talk to each other about menopause, they aren't support groups or locations for talks, promotions etc. Just somewhere people can go to to chat to other people who get it.

I’ve no problems with discussing menopause with men or young women- it’s important that it’s seen as normal and not taboo.

BUT if it’s a group that functions as a support network to help women going through it, I see no reason for men to be included.

Normalise discussion in the wider sense- leave spaces for those going through it.

I view it in the same way I would a group for mental or physical health issues. Don’t hide them away but there’s no place for anyone not affected in a space that is to help those going through it.

I'm thinking about transmen and that there may be differences depending upon age of transition and lifetime exposure to testosterone.

tbh, I'd think the best people to understand transmen's experience of menopause would be those with comparable experience.

Younger women experience menopause if they've had ovaries removed (say). I realise that some transmen or non-binary people will have done similarly, but not all of them. Is there not a difference between experiencing menopause as a consequence of surgery and those who experience it as a consequence of exposure to cross-sex hormones? And would the menopause differ depending on the duration of that?