Menopause Cafe confusion

I’m menopausal. Most of my friends are too. There is no way any of us would feel comfortable discussing our issues with strange men the group. Just no way. It’s hard enough for Middle Age women to discuss it with each other as we have been socialised to just get on with it. Our mothers didn’t talk about it. So in summary any woman I know going thorough some very difficult changes would NOT discuss this with random men on the internet or in real life. Same as a man would not discuss his inability to get an erection with a random group of women unless he was doing it for sexual reasons.

If any man would like my menopausal symptoms I’m happy to identify out of being a woman.

@beastlyslumber It’s a really good idea.

I am only in my 30’s so hopefully menopause is still a ways off but I would be happy to join a group devoted to the menopause experience but only if it was by women for women only.

No chance in hell would I join a group for discussing female bodily functions that allowed males in it, no matter how those males identify or present themselves.

As a menopausal woman it would have been very helpful if my ex had taken a moment to understand a bit more about menopause. I absolutely wouldn’t want to stop anyone from attending or learning about something that affects almost all women. What I will not tolerate is the removal of the word women from that statement. If you want to add on “transmen, female non-binary people and any other identity which you feel is relevant” feel free. But as a woman, an adult human female, I will not be ok with woman's bodies and experiences being hushed up and replaced with people/holes etc as we have seen time and time again.

You get the impression that the most important thing about the menopause of the female body is how it can be used to involve and facilitate male people.

I signed up to the menopause cafe a couple of years ago on Facebook. One day, there was a post by someone asking if a trans woman could join as the hormones they were taking to transition from being a man to being a woman were causing symptoms. They were welcomed with open arms on the thread.
For me, that was an instant nope. I am not joining an organisation that panders to male bodied people, some of whom are probably experiencing autogynaephilia. Nope nope nope.
Menopause is something women and only women experience. There needs to be a specific group for trans men as their experiences and needs will be different based on the male hormones they are taking.

I certainly wouldn't consider attending any group discussing personal/ health stuff with makes present.
I'm getting more and more annoyed at the various excuses being flung at us when we object. If we say 'no', we are exclusionary,bigoted and negative. If those insults can't be levelled at us,it's our 'tone' that's the problem.🙄 Funny that I never see men getting pulled up for their 'tone',just like men are never shrill,strident or bossy.
Menopause isn't great,but it has given me one gift,that I've got zero fucks left to give.

Never changes does it?

No ability to listen, engage, discuss, actually respond to women's concerns.

Just a fast run away in horror that there are people not like me!

If you find women talking about their bodies and experiences to be this threatening then really, you may wish to choose something less upsetting to lead a group on? Knitting possibly.

Ah. So not in fact a target market inclusive of all women experiencing menopause with the goal of supporting them.

But a target market of anyone of any sex who share a particular political view, with the goal of supporting this .

Yes. Not inclusive then. And definitely not for me.

I won't include a smiley if you don't mind, since I don't feel particularly good about this conversation or the attitude towards women that it represents. My body is not your political arena.

Why is it that they all use 😊?

Am I prepared to discuss this with random men?

Yes, that, exactly. How the male person identifies isn't relevant in any way. I won't be discussing my body and this extremely challenging, personal time in my life with any male who isn't immediate family and needs to know - male colleagues, absolutely not! Male strangers even less.

Why male people would feel this is a situation they want and expect to be involved in to me creates a red flag about that person and makes me wonder: why do you feel women would want to share this with you? How do you think your presence is going to inhibit and discourage those it was created to meet the needs of? Is that a good thing? Which women who really need it will not be there because you feel you want to be, in order to make your comments, ask your questions, share your experience as a male?

If there is a group of male people who really urgently want to talk about the menopause or better understand their wives or a hundred other reasons important to male people about the menopause then perhaps they need a group for that. And perhaps which male people would not attend a women's menopause group because of their concerns about insensitivity to and inhibiting/excluding the people it was created for, but would come to a male group?

When you have stretched your brief to tick lots of lovely boxes and have started to actively exclude and discourage your core clientele and the reason for setting up in the first place? That is not an inclusion success. That's a #fail

Am I prepared to discuss this with random women who tried to shrug off their biological sex and effectively opted to do this (menopause) to themselves? No, I’m not.

I think this is entirely fair enough. I don't necessarily think young FTM trans people are the best fit for a menopause group but I suspect all the discussion of health issues within trans groups centres around what males feel is important.

It's this thing of being inclusively exclusionary again.

Fashionable, yet deeply unhelpful. See: mission creep.

yes. Fashionable, yet deeply unhelpful.

Enter a space, start censuring and not listening seems to be way of things.

The censuring get fuck right off.

Crumbs.

I think I would have considered a menopause cafe but probably not now. I’m going to get flamed for this but right now I am in the grip of awful perimenopausal symptoms. It’s awful. I can’t describe it but I have had days where I have thought it might be easier to be alone (ending my marriage). I’ve thought it might be easier to quit my job than struggle on. I’ve thought it might be easier to not be alive.

Am I prepared to discuss this with random men who wear womanhood as a costume? No. And I know no one on here expects me to.

Am I prepared to discuss this with random women who tried to shrug off their biological sex and effectively opted to do this (menopause) to themselves? No, I’m not.

No one in their right mind would choose this for themselves. No one. For those who have, I have no time for you today & I pity you deeply.

It's this thing of being inclusively exclusionary again.

Fashionable, yet deeply unhelpful. See: mission creep.

I declined to attend a workshop HR organised because no way am I discussing my menopause symptoms with male colleagues present. If people can't see including males excludes females, there is no helping them.

I think it is a great idea beastly.

Use language that doesn't reduce us to body parts or is additive, and I would support these cafes.

I actually really love the idea of a menopause cafe - for people who experience menopause, i.e. females. I'm going through menopause now and there's not much information or support out there. I would totally go to this thing, if it were for females only.

Anyone want to start one with me?

And as a woman going through menopause who would likely be using your area's cafe, I do understand.

Ok. I get it. I think I understand quite well.

The people with wombs statement was not meant to offend at all.

I am new to MN and only came on here as my specific group was mentioned.

I appreciate all your points of view but like someone said about a menopause cafe with men that wasn’t right for them, I won’t be hanging around on here but I wish you all well. 😊

And by doctors, I mean male doctors. Treating my significant menstrual pain as being all ‘in my head’ and that other women cope why can’t you. And so on and so on.

Victoria

Perhaps you are new to MN and don’t realise that we are ‘tone policed’ constantly. And it ranges from people telling us how ‘sad’ they are to calling us bigots.

If women who are menopausal such as I am are saying that they don’t want to be dehumanised by being called ‘people with wombs’ and would feel uncomfortable having language used like that to accommodate someone else’s needs, please be aware that we are responding to the constant barrage of feeling that our needs are being pushed to the background for someone else’s.

I appreciate that you have apologised, but I also hope that you understand. Absolutely transitioned females should be included. But to then use the language they insist on and that language only is actually detrimental to others as well.

If someone starts describing me as a womb haver at a menopause cafe, I am likely to leave immediately because for my entire life I have had doctors treat my symptoms as being of no consequence, being psyochosomatic. It had been dehumanising. To go to a group that is intended to be a support group that continues that dehumanising, will simply mean I will leave it immediately.

And I fully understand the need for the language, I have transitioned females in my life on a daily basis.

Some of us will cope with additive language. But I will not cope with only inclusive language.

And I also would be suspect of a group who seeks to censure others for needing to not be dehumanised.

So ridiculous, why does everything revolve around not hurting men's feelings now. Women are supposedly the fairer sex and we can never have a reaction to anything.

Yes me too, I think TM must need a lot of support with menopause. Going through it atm in my early 50s, it must be awful to go through it in your early 20s. Given what we know about how little information TM seem to be given generally about what happens, I expect they get told to expect “vaginal dryness” just like us older women rather than an accurate description of the hideousness of vaginal atrophy for example