Menopause Cafe confusion

:59BadNomad

*From the website:

• Menopause Cafes are not support groups Menopause Cafes are not an opportunity to give people information about the menopause, regardless of how useful or important this information is. *Menopause Cafes are not a method for community engagement, research or consultation.

Forgive me for being mighty confused as to what these menopause cafes actually are.
Whatever, like most PP, wild horses could not drag me to a menopause discussion group with men in attendance. Any man can find all he needs to know without bothering women with his unwanted attendance at a discussion. Any perspective he may have will be from his male viewpoint and therefore irrelevant, and often intrusive or insensitive.

Yes to that voiceofreason. And I don’t think we are unreasonable for wanting that at all.

I would definitely attend something like this if it was female only.
And I want to be able to talk clearly about women's issues and bodies without using contrived language.

I suspect transmen would need a different service though I would have no objection to their presence, as long as they didn't complain about the words I use for myself. What they are going through and the reasons for it are very different to me.

I like spending my time with other middle-aged women who have no fucks left to give.

Anyone else wondering whether Victoria's cafe will have a lot of new TW members at their next meeting?

I think it is actually quite telling that none of us offered them a ‘biscuit’ or said ODFOD.

(Interpretation: no one said ‘oh do fuck off dear’ meaning most of us were here ready to talk to someone who had something to offer. Instead we got censure, and then more censure and then told off for our reaction to being censured)

Fine to 'wish us all the best' but then you're coming back and snarking at us for being 'unfriendly'. And then buggering off again with another passive aggressive smily face.

Ye canne both hold onto the high ground and come in and get your feet dirty in the cage fight discussion; it's one or the other.

Mumsnet is known for being blunt, upfront, outspoken. Especially the feminist board. Women on here are forthright and honest; many of them are at the 'no fucks left to give' stage of perimenopause, and this discussion might actually be really useful for you and the whole aim of the Menopause Cafe - which sounds like a good idea, if I'm a bit bemused why it has to include 'all genders' - if you would be willing to listen to women and set aside the huff - it's coming across as a need to feel superior and nobody likes that.

Have a and join in, once you're over the initial shock it's really quite refreshing.

and by 'service' I mean this very group that Victoria was advertising.

I also wonder how much experience you have of talking with menopausal women if you think it's a good idea to tell us that our tone is wrong and our ideas are making you sad. Obviously that's not going to endear you to anyone here.

I would gather that we are not the 'right type' of menopausal women. Despite the fact that I, and my friends, are probably exactly the menopausal women the service is aimed at. I know of very few menopausal woman in this area that accept being referred to as 'anyone with wombs'.

And none of us would attend somewhere to discuss menopause that had males there.

The fact that you, Victoria, have apologised is to be commended. However, I am suspicious of that apology because it really did not come across as genuinely understanding the points people are trying to make.

It came across as performative. It might have something to do with the passive aggressive tone of those emojis and the continued censuring posts.

So how I have interpreted those posts is :

Come on, make comments about how male's too can find these events useful, but acknowledge that maybe women are ok to have their own events, tell women off for not accepting dehumanising language, see that women are not backing down and actually have some very valid points and have attempted to articulate those. And apology is issued. People post to try to ascertain whether any understanding has been reached and you leave the conversation complete with the smiley emoji.

When that behaviour has also been pointed out to be rather typical of new people with certain pre-determined mindsets that seem to always centre on being kind and attempting to censure women for not using the appropriate words, we get another flounce . Again with an emotionally manipulative 'I must say that you are not at all friendly' while acknowledging at least that their entry was 'confrontational'.

And another smiley emoji.

How many posts that have been written with the intent to shame regular posters on MN have contained that very same emoji?

If I have misinterpreted your posts Victoria, I do apologise. If you sincerely came here to discuss the Menopause Cafe, why did you think it was appropriate to censure posters in any way?

Do you actually understand why women posting on this thread, women taking the time to relay their experiences, are upset at language such as 'those with wombs' is being forced, or attempted to be forced through emotional manipulation?

If anything, I am certainly glad that you have taken on board that women don't want male inclusion though. I do hope that you actually do find a way to offer a female only service.

Victoria, if you're not comfortable with talking to menopausal women, then I'm not sure what you're doing running a menopause cafe!

I also wonder how much experience you have of talking with menopausal women if you think it's a good idea to tell us that our tone is wrong and our ideas are making you sad. Obviously that's not going to endear you to anyone here.

I really can’t find enough eye rolls in my head to comment to Victoria. Please do run back to your woke echo chamber on the internet and leave us middle aged menopausal women to support ourselves. I can’t think of anything more likely to induce my menopausal rage than meeting a perky Victoria telling me to ‘be kind’ at a menopause discussion group.

I wish all the women on here all the best.
I think there has been a lot of misunderstanding on here maybe from my part too.
Just to clarify.
Menopause Cafe’s are for women but men are allowed to attend but they don’t so in my experience they have only women there.
My comment ‘those with wombs’ was possibly a little insensitive and was not intended to be.
Menopause Cafes are discussion groups and not support groups.
No one who runs or comes to them claims to be an expert.
The people at the Menopause Cafe I co host are very supportive of each other and have been coming for years. They have found a safe space for support in their time of need.
I must say I haven’t found Mums Net very friendly. Maybe I was a little too confrontational myself with my initial comment but I have since acknowledged that and have apologised. I only commented as it came up in Google. I will be leaving as it doesn’t feel the right place for me. As has been discussed on here different people feel more comfortable in different spaces and we need to choose those that work for us but wish you all well. 😊

Oh I see that Victoria doesn't actually want to hear from the kind of women uterus people who would likely be most interested in her product. As you were.

What's the point of menopause cafe if not to support women? If that is indeed the purpose, why must said women be used as tools to educate men?

Men absolutely should learn about menopause, but the women going through it shouldn't have to explain it to them. Why not have a different model whereby facilitators inform them instead? I imagine uptake would be low, in which case if find myself asking again why women can't just have their own groups that meet their specific needs.

Some people see to think that "inclusion" is the holy grail of modern virtues, but to my mind that shows a lack of critical thinking and empathy.

Huge row.

Also they had patterns for 'packers' for girls on there. It's why I left.

Yes

unherd.com/2020/01/cast-out-how-knitting-fell-into-a-purity-spiral/

Wasn't there an almighty row over on Revelry at some point?

If you find women talking about their bodies and experiences to be this threatening then really, you may wish to choose something less upsetting to lead a group on? Knitting possibly.

Knitting? It’s a savage purity spiral out there in the yarn world. I’d go for something gentler, like cage fighting.

Beig a middle aged woman is not performance art for the entertainment of men.

@RockPaperScience

AgathaMystery, I am so very sad after reading your post, sending every best wish that you find a path through that works for you.

Please take as much care of yourself as you can, and if it helps in any small way, know you are not alone.

Ps. Fuck night sweats in particular.

For any other women in the grip of the peri on pause, I am v early 40’s & I have started HRT & I am sure that soon I will start to feel better. I have been seen & diagnosed & seen (face to face) 4 or 5 times in the past 12 months. This is incredible & I know it. I work in Women’s health & have pulled in every favour I can to get to this point.

How other women are coping I don’t know.

It’s hard to admit your symptoms to a colleague in a professional setting & be vulnerable & they be your primary doctor & then work with them on an equal footing the same day. These are some of the things that men cannot understand. Not even my lovely husband.

I know I’m going to be okay but I do wonder about other women. How many have left children and marriages and lives when actually maybe some needed a decent endocrinologist and a whack of hormones? Heartbreaking.

AgathaMystery, I am so very sad after reading your post, sending every best wish that you find a path through that works for you.

Please take as much care of yourself as you can, and if it helps in any small way, know you are not alone.

Ps. Fuck night sweats in particular.

It’s hard enough for Middle Age women to discuss it with each other as we have been socialised to just get on with it. Our mothers didn’t talk about it.

This. This is key.

What all these people who are accepting the use of dehumanised language as replacement and not additive (and I know many women will also not accept the additive language either) is that many of us have experienced already the dehumanisation.

The fact that very few of us discuss it with our friends or even our sisters or mothers is that this issue HAS always been dehumanised.

None of us want to discuss it with males in the group. And very few will want to attend a group using terminology like 'those with a womb'. That is not even accurate for a good percentage of women going through menopause even.

Does people honestly think that using the term 'people with wombs' is appropriate to menopausal women? What about those without a womb? Do they have to go somewhere else?

Once you pull one thread ... more unravels. But that is what is happening with 'this' type of inclusion. It is not being well done at all.

I cannot believe what I’m reading. The concept is a great idea. But I would NOT attend If males were there (not transmen I mean trans women or men). I agree men, boys, girls need educating on the menopause but that’s not happening with my experiences thank you. Bloody hell we now can’t even talk about the menopause with women without having to include biological men. It’s alway women. It’s like men attending breast screening sessions with their partners. I don’t want men there either.