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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Phillip Pullman

235 replies

Dollpiglet · 21/07/2021 07:19

I'm not a huge user of Twitter but I do follow Phillip Pullman who seems to have stepped out on this issue now. I'm gutted!

twitter.com/PhilipPullman/status/1417467807873241088?s=19

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MangyInseam · 29/03/2022 00:34

@ScrollingLeaves

“tabbycatstripy Years ago someone asked me about Philip Pullman's books and I said I like them, but there's something weird about them. The more I thought about it, the less I could understand why a middle aged man chose to write about a precocious adolescent who is held back from the awakening of her sexuality by conservative forces.“

I didn’t see that post. I never read the books as meaning that. More the horrific interference with and harvesting of children’s souls by adults.

Pullman intended them to be about the idea of original sin, the idea being that in the Christian story, Adam and Eve were intended to remain childlike, but really eating the apple was the beginning of wisdom. In the story, beginning to accumulate dust which causes the daemon to stabilize is supposed to be analogous to becoming wise, and the Church and Mrs Coulter are trying to prevent that by severing the children from their daemons, even at the cost of making them zombies. He seems to think that the "original sin" was sex, so it makes sense that is how he presents it in the story.
HirplesWithHaggis · 29/03/2022 00:30

@EvilGoldfish

Hmm image didn’t seem to post? Let me try again:
Coal dust is not the same as soot, and Santa would pick up soot going down chimneys anyway.

(Sorry, not a terribly intellectual reply, but it grates.)

KimikosNightmare · 28/03/2022 23:44

Personally I much prefer Neil Gaiman to JK Rowling. I came quite late to Harry Potter and neither my son nor I enjoyed the first one. I read the first one and thought - well what's all the fuss about?

Neverwhere or Stardust or The Sleeper and the Spindle for example made far more impression on me than Harry Potter.

That's just my personal taste and irrelevant really, but saying Gaiman is just jealous of everyone around him, especially JK makes you sound about 10.

MangyInseam · 28/03/2022 23:42

@pollyhemlock

He does make it clear in The Secret Commonwealth that though Will and Lyra are in love they do not have sex . Adult Lyra says : ‘ All we ever did was kiss...And that was enough. If we’d been older then it wouldn’t have been enough. But for us then it was’. Of course you could argue that he only makes this so clear because of criticism of that scene in The Amber Spyglass. But I still find it less troubling than CS Lewis condemning poor old Susan to losing her entire family because she likes ‘lipstick and nylons’. I am in general a Narnia fan though. It’s possible to like them both.
Surely authors don't have to give all characters ideal outcomes though, even beloved characters?

Susan's problem wasn't really the lipstick, it was that she'd allowed less important things in the world to suppress the memory of Narnia altogether, which is not an unusual phenomena. Had she died with the others she might not have found her way there. Since she didn't die, the reader can hope that she will become wiser and remember.

Clymene · 28/03/2022 23:32

And don't forget that she does his laundry!

EvilGoldfish · 28/03/2022 23:26

Oh bloody hell! Ignore the photo of me trying to get my five year old to show his tonsils (gp wanted a photo before prescribing antibiotics!)

Hmm
EvilGoldfish · 28/03/2022 23:25

Hmm image didn’t seem to post? Let me try again:

Phillip Pullman
EvilGoldfish · 28/03/2022 23:24

@KimikosNightmare

NG is just jealous of everyone around him, especially JK, I mean his books are ok but his best books are those he's written with others. Must sting

If NG is Neil Gaiman, this is a ridiculous comment. You might not like Neil Gaiman as a person but he's a hugely successful and imaginative writer.

Really?

Because he wrote this huge part of steaming sexist horseshit for a children’s book of questions and answers. Given how many times he manages to describe Mrs. Claus as ‘soft’ in three paragraphs, I certainly wouldn’t call him ‘imaginative’.

Phillip Pullman
KimikosNightmare · 28/03/2022 22:29

NG is just jealous of everyone around him, especially JK, I mean his books are ok but his best books are those he's written with others. Must sting

If NG is Neil Gaiman, this is a ridiculous comment. You might not like Neil Gaiman as a person but he's a hugely successful and imaginative writer.

KimikosNightmare · 28/03/2022 22:23

[quote ScrollingLeaves]@tabbycatstripy
I was not young when I read the first two but an adult reading them out loud to a child. I now realise I did not read The Amber Spyglass as the child took over on their own.

I am going to take your word for it and read it later. I can see what you might be meaning in theory.

The first two books though are certainly brilliant and thrilling I think; and the daemons are a marvellous concept. Even now too the idea of Spectres and their destructive effects is so powerful in our family understanding that it is a point of reference for us when someone is so wounded by events that they give up and their eyes look dead.[/quote]
I agree. The first 2 books are splendid. Oxford and Cittigazi are such real places. The daemons , the spectres, the witches and the armoured bears are marvellous creations.

The Amber Spyglass lost it a bit - it was overwritten and perhaps had too many ideas.

I enjoyed La Belle Sauvage but The Commonwealth of Dust fizzled out.

ScrollingLeaves · 28/03/2022 21:01

@tabbycatstripy
I was not young when I read the first two but an adult reading them out loud to a child. I now realise I did not read The Amber Spyglass as the child took over on their own.

I am going to take your word for it and read it later. I can see what you might be meaning in theory.

The first two books though are certainly brilliant and thrilling I think; and the daemons are a marvellous concept. Even now too the idea of Spectres and their destructive effects is so powerful in our family understanding that it is a point of reference for us when someone is so wounded by events that they give up and their eyes look dead.

PermanentTemporary · 28/03/2022 20:29

A motto i have is never to @ my heroes

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 28/03/2022 20:22

The bit where they were petting each others daemons always squicked me out more than the sex under a tree (which of course they did, the whole trilogy was leading towards that point). That just annoyed me because it was such an obvious plot point,

colouringindoors · 28/03/2022 20:16

Arrogant, patronising, nasty misogynist.

nepeta · 28/03/2022 19:36

On Twitter Pullman calls the voice of those who protest his agreement with that tweet 'squeaking.'

His slip is showing.

KimikosNightmare · 28/03/2022 19:13

@tabbycatstripy

Kimikos:

Was I vague? I didn't think I was.

Well I don't know what point you're trying to make.
pollyhemlock · 28/03/2022 18:23

He does make it clear in The Secret Commonwealth that though Will and Lyra are in love they do not have sex . Adult Lyra says : ‘ All we ever did was kiss...And that was enough. If we’d been older then it wouldn’t have been enough. But for us then it was’. Of course you could argue that he only makes this so clear because of criticism of that scene in The Amber Spyglass. But I still find it less troubling than CS Lewis condemning poor old Susan to losing her entire family because she likes ‘lipstick and nylons’. I am in general a Narnia fan though. It’s possible to like them both.

tabbycatstripy · 28/03/2022 16:30

Couldn't agree more, nightwaking.

nightwakingmoon · 28/03/2022 16:28

Years ago someone asked me about Philip Pullman's books and I said I like them, but there's something weird about them. The more I thought about it, the less I could understand why a middle aged man chose to write about a precocious adolescent who is held back from the awakening of her sexuality by conservative forces.

I was posting on the other thread on Pullman in feminist chat last night, and saying something very similar to you @tabbycatstripy.

I thought the first book was good, but the second and third baggy and disappointing -- and I could never quite get on board with the whole titillating the reader with the coy do-they-or-don't-they implication that two twelve year old protagonists might be saving the world by having sex under a tree. He's always been very coy in interviews about whether that's intended, but in a way that clearly goes along with the narrative trajectory that it does.

Even when I first read them when they first came out and I was much younger, this kind of stuck in my craw rather and set off my ick factor somewhat. Okay if the protagonists were fifteen or sixteen, say, and he wanted to write about adolescent sexuality in a YA-oriented book. But twelve year olds? Nah, there's something off and a bit "in plain sight" about that; and it's always really bothered me to be honest. There's no especial need why that has to be the implied resolution of the story and I'm always surprised at how many people don't seem to think there's something weird about it.

tabbycatstripy · 28/03/2022 16:26

I do like his books, but even before I knew he was on the other side of this debate to me I thought they were slightly off.

pollyhemlock · 28/03/2022 16:21

Just to say that it’s perfectly possible to love PP’s books, as I do, and to disagree with him strongly on the gender issue. One of the most irritating things about the TRAs and their supporters is the way so many of them go on about how they loved Harry Potter but of course hate it now because JKR etc etc. A subset make it their life’s work to go through everything JKR has ever written in a frankly creepy way to find things to be offended about. I do think PP should come off Twitter though. Every time he says anything on that forum he makes a twat of himself.

tabbycatstripy · 28/03/2022 16:16

Kimikos:

Was I vague? I didn't think I was.

tabbycatstripy · 28/03/2022 16:16

'I didn’t see that post. I never read the books as meaning that. More the horrific interference with and harvesting of children’s souls by adults.'

They gave me the ick as I got older.

ScrollingLeaves · 28/03/2022 13:43

“tabbycatstripy
Years ago someone asked me about Philip Pullman's books and I said I like them, but there's something weird about them. The more I thought about it, the less I could understand why a middle aged man chose to write about a precocious adolescent who is held back from the awakening of her sexuality by conservative forces.“

I didn’t see that post. I never read the books as meaning that. More the horrific interference with and harvesting of children’s souls by adults.

KimikosNightmare · 28/03/2022 13:37

@tabbycatstripy

Years ago someone asked me about Philip Pullman's books and I said I like them, but there's something weird about them. The more I thought about it, the less I could understand why a middle aged man chose to write about a precocious adolescent who is held back from the awakening of her sexuality by conservative forces.
What is your point?