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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Collective Noun

86 replies

MyIronLung46 · 19/07/2021 23:23

Hi all

I would like an opinion on something before I broach the subject IRL.

I am male, I coach a 'Girls' team in what used to be a very male orientated sport. The players are teens or pre-teen.
A couple of the players identify as non-binary, and I have been told that they prefer not to be referred to as a girl.
As a coach, I am struggling to find an appropriate name when working with the group. Normally I would say 'Girls, can you please....' I also teach mixed sex teams of younger kids, and use the term 'guys', but I am concerned that 'guys' can be seen as a male orientated name (think Guys and Dolls).

Suggestions would be appreciated....

OP posts:
MidnightSilence · 20/07/2021 21:03

@Barracker

If it's a girls' team, then there's a lot to be said for leading the ethos of it being 'for girls who are not ashamed of being the brilliant girls they are'

If a girl is ashamed or embarrassed to be a girl, or holds negative connotations with being a girl, or assumes the other girls 'identify' with... whatever else negative she doesn't want to associate with, the very last thing I would do as an adult is to accommodate those harmful ideas or lend them validity.

You don't mutate a positive girls' team into something else to accommodate a child who is clinging to damaging ideas of girlhood.
You don't mould the positive girls' team to suit the child's negative ideas. You mould the negative ideas instead.

The team is for girls. The child who is a girl (but doesn't want to be) is welcome, but the terms of entry are that everyone on it is a girl who accepts this is a girls' team.

Quite.
therocinante · 20/07/2021 20:29

@SmugglersHaunt

How about ‘girls and the self-obsessed’? Although it could become onerous quite quickly
How droll. Making up hilarious little scenarios on the internet where an adult calls a child self-obsessed for something that feels as important to them as their identity is quite something...

OP is trying to do right by the children he coaches in his limited capacity as their coach in a way that doesn't disadvantage the group as a whole (unless you would be offended to be referred to as 'everybody' while in a group and insist on all groups of women ONLY being greeted with "hello, women!" at all times, in which case shine on you crazy diamond) and you're using some kids you don't know to score imaginary points. Good job.

SmugglersHaunt · 20/07/2021 19:48

How about ‘girls and the self-obsessed’? Although it could become onerous quite quickly

Barracker · 20/07/2021 19:42

If it's a girls' team, then there's a lot to be said for leading the ethos of it being 'for girls who are not ashamed of being the brilliant girls they are'

If a girl is ashamed or embarrassed to be a girl, or holds negative connotations with being a girl, or assumes the other girls 'identify' with... whatever else negative she doesn't want to associate with, the very last thing I would do as an adult is to accommodate those harmful ideas or lend them validity.

You don't mutate a positive girls' team into something else to accommodate a child who is clinging to damaging ideas of girlhood.
You don't mould the positive girls' team to suit the child's negative ideas. You mould the negative ideas instead.

The team is for girls. The child who is a girl (but doesn't want to be) is welcome, but the terms of entry are that everyone on it is a girl who accepts this is a girls' team.

OldChinaJug · 20/07/2021 19:25

I would examine that, as it is a girls' team, everyone will be referred to as 'girls'. If she does not consider herself.to eh a girl, she can find an appropriate alternative.

The other girls have the right to be recognised as, celebrated and called 'girls'!

ArabellaScott · 20/07/2021 19:03

Yes, it is odd that if you can't handle being called a girl you'd join a team explicitly called a girls' team, surely?

EyesOpening · 20/07/2021 18:21

@Hopeishere52

Reading the comments, I agree that all of the girls should feel welcome in the group and that seems to be what the OP wants too.
I'm not saying that any female person should be made to not feel welcome but I feel there's going to come a situation where something is going to have to give, will it be the fact that it's called/referred to as a "girl's" team? I feel like those who don't consider themselves girls anymore are like young adults saying they want to be independent yet still want their parents to keep them or do their washing, or someone who says they don't want to be in a relationship with someone anymore but still want to see them and they can't see other people. You don't want the label of something, yet you still want the things that label "is"
Helmetbymidnight · 20/07/2021 17:20

I think that's a seriously bad idea,

You're right of course.
The whole thing just pisses me off - the girls are such lovely, lively and normal girls and they are coming out with this bullshit. I just want to wake them up - its not my place too tho, obvs, and anyway, as DH always says to me, 'don't get involved'.

MyIronLung46 · 20/07/2021 12:30

@Hopeishere52

Reading the comments, I agree that all of the girls should feel welcome in the group and that seems to be what the OP wants too.
Absolutely. All girls are welcome to join regardless of size, shape, race, ability etc... fully inclusive and diverse. It has built confidence in alot of them on and off the pitch.

I want a culture where they feel appreciated and listened too. But also want them to be driven to succeed. Success is not measured in being better than anyone else, but being better than they were yesterday. Its a tough sport, and it takes guts to get stuck in, the journey a lot of them have made over the last 6 months has been amazing. They have formed a team themselves, a proper community of people who didn't know each other 6 months ago, and no share wins and losses, and all the emotions that go with that, together.

We use statements like #thisgirlcan and i wear a 'Strong Girls Club' t-shirt with pride. I am acutely aware that by not acknowledging that they ARE girls can put march to equality on the back foot...

Again, thanks for all your comments. Its just seems there is no right or wrong at this moment!

OP posts:
MrsOvertonsWindow · 20/07/2021 12:02

@JoodyBlue

You should decide and stick to what you decide. You are the coach, the leader. Therefore they need to see authority from you. I would probably go with "everyone" myself. But I wouldn't ask them. I think it would make them feel even more insecure than they are already. We need grownups in this culture.
THIS

We're in this mess because adults have stood back and allowed children with zero understanding of nuance, discrimination and bullying to dominate the discourse about human rights - resulting in women being stripped of our identity, language and rights.

Make a considered decision and use it - but don't allow them to argue the toss - some of them will dominate, derail and bully others into acquiescence - and another place where girls can be girls will be lost. In this case - #nodebate Grin

Hopeishere52 · 20/07/2021 11:48

Reading the comments, I agree that all of the girls should feel welcome in the group and that seems to be what the OP wants too.

MyIronLung46 · 20/07/2021 11:29

I hate football too!

Thanks for all the replies, a lot to take in...

OP posts:
Zandathepanda · 20/07/2021 10:14

‘Hi Guys’ in a singsong voice seems to be the preferred greeting by girls round here.

Guys is fine.

ErrolTheDragon · 20/07/2021 10:09

My plan is to say that its a girls team and they can leave if they're not girls. There are plenty of boys teams.

They are girls. I think that's a seriously bad idea, reinforcing their unrealistic notions and pushing them towards irreversible damaging 'treatments'. It's a girls' team so surely it should be open to all 'juvenile human females', regardless of what they want to label themselves. It's not a 'single gender' team. The boys' team is for juvenile males, not young females. It may be physically unsafe for 'NB' females or 'trans boys' as puberty progresses.

If you go down that route then you also weaken the position re allowing 'transgirls' to join the girls' team.

Helmetbymidnight · 20/07/2021 09:36

DH is in the same position.

The girls haven't gone public yet, they've only told their friends.

My plan is to say that its a girls team and they can leave if they're not girls. There are plenty of boys teams.

If you don't want to face it tho, (and I don't blame you - these are hugely sensitive times - eye-roll ) yeah, I'd call them the team name or team colours.

JoodyBlue · 20/07/2021 09:34

You should decide and stick to what you decide. You are the coach, the leader. Therefore they need to see authority from you. I would probably go with "everyone" myself. But I wouldn't ask them. I think it would make them feel even more insecure than they are already. We need grownups in this culture.

Thumpsquids · 20/07/2021 09:31

'Small Humans,' my old science teacher used to call us. I quite liked it.

Toffeebutterpopcorn · 20/07/2021 09:20

Plus it gives the message that a whole group can be dictated to (or ‘be kind’ in modern parlance) by a small minority (who very well - the odds are - may change their minds. And if you get it wrong, then what - the class gets derailed by a lecture/tantrum/strop? If they want to discuss gender politics then ‘take it outside’.

It’s not like one child is profoundly deaf so her teammates learn basic sign language to make her feel more of a part of the team.

Flapjak · 20/07/2021 09:16

I assume that as they are of the non binary identfiying age they sre adolescents so actually uaing something like team when addressing the whole group. And use their names when addressing one or two of them? Do not use guys as it ie not a neutral term allthough pretends to be. I also find folks cringey as associate it with 'fairy folk'.

WhatWudYouDo · 20/07/2021 09:16

Agree that guys is male. These two guys who walked into the pub are always a couple of blokes.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 20/07/2021 09:13

It’s nice of you to care about this, OP. I would stick with girls as it is the Girls team.

lazylinguist · 20/07/2021 09:08

Tell them not to be so bloody daft.

Well, kind of this really... But what term would you use if it were a mixed team? Unless they're in single sex schools, teachers have to do this all the time and either say 'Year 7' etc or everyone/you lot/guys/folks/people or children if it's for little ones. Of course... you don't actually need to use a noun there at all.

Hopeishere52 · 20/07/2021 09:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 20/07/2021 08:52

Agree with others

Team

Team name

Everyone

Not guys, I don’t make a fuss about it but it is male by default

ErrolTheDragon · 20/07/2021 08:42

You mentioned that you also run a mixed team, could you offer that as a choice for those players who don’t identify as girls.

I think the OP said that was for younger kids.
And surely any suggestion these girls - who are hopefully only temporarily playing with 'identity' - should be made to feel unwelcome in the girls' team is a very bad one. It might be a bridge burning moment, and reinforce their daft idea that there's actually anything different about them.

The point about 'why are they in the girls team then' is surely that actually, they know fine well they're girls, that they're female - and that's a good thing.

I think the OP should think through what to say if the matter arises naturally, but in general maybe best avoid making the naming into a big issue. Use neutral terms more but try not to look mortified or apologetic if you accidentally say 'girls'. Talking about the history of the sport (and maybe other sexist sports) and how important it is there aren't just men's and boys teams would be good, and not directed at anyone in particular. Ironically, I assume these NB people won't overly mind references to 'men and boys 'as - mercifully - they don't identify as boys.

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