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Original poster

Collective Noun

86 replies

MyIronLung46 · 19/07/2021 23:23

Hi all

I would like an opinion on something before I broach the subject IRL.

I am male, I coach a 'Girls' team in what used to be a very male orientated sport. The players are teens or pre-teen.
A couple of the players identify as non-binary, and I have been told that they prefer not to be referred to as a girl.
As a coach, I am struggling to find an appropriate name when working with the group. Normally I would say 'Girls, can you please....' I also teach mixed sex teams of younger kids, and use the term 'guys', but I am concerned that 'guys' can be seen as a male orientated name (think Guys and Dolls).

Suggestions would be appreciated....

OP posts:
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IamAporcupine · 21/07/2021 19:44

@SmugglersHaunt

How about ‘girls and the self-obsessed’? Although it could become onerous quite quickly
Grin
Hotcuppatea · 21/07/2021 19:11

I would just use 'team'.

Well done team!
Nice work team!
Keep going team!

Etc.

KittenKong · 21/07/2021 19:01

At work I have been known to use:

Team
Youse lot/You lot
Ya rabble
Oi/ho (no, not in that way)
People
Collies (rather than colleagues)
Comrades
Darlings/dahlings

transdimensional · 21/07/2021 18:30

I don't really like the gender-neutral use of "guys" (though I know a lot of people have no problem with it) but it's interesting how feminist criticism of generic "guys" had no effect - it was only when TRAs started opposing the use of the term "guys" that people started to take notice. So for example in the Atlantic www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/08/guys-gender-neutral/568231/ we read that "I heard from several people who said that the word is particularly troubling for trans and gender-nonconforming people". The Atlantic goes on to note that women may also dislike "guys" and that "people have been resisting the term for decades". So why is the term "guys" seen as particularly troubling for trans women? I would guess that there are two reasons - (1) if natal women are called guys, they might not appreciate it but they know they're not actually been mistaken for men or told that they're men, a possibility that trans women are hypersensitive about; (2) society cares more about the opinions of natal males (such as trans women) than those of women.

ErrolTheDragon · 21/07/2021 11:22

@EyesOpening

I’m wondering if the formation of another team (not necessarily in this specific instance) for non-binaries of both sexes, might lead them to understand how having separate things for women and girls, is instrumental in helping women and girls succeed, or even just to participate, in things
I wouldn't have thought there would be enough in most cases.

For some sports, an extra mixed team open to both sexes and any 'identity' may be a good addition. But one just for 'non binaries'... that just reinforces the false idea that 'gender' has anything whatever to do with what team you should be in.

ErrolTheDragon · 21/07/2021 11:18

@Tibtom

Do you think the boys team have the same issue? If not, why not?
Probably not, because boys who didn't 'feel like boys' would try to muscle into the girls' team (regardless of what it gets called) if they wanted to do sports.
Beamur · 21/07/2021 11:06

@Tibtom

Do you think the boys team have the same issue? If not, why not?
Good point I think if you want to use collective terms that aren't going to rub anyone up the wrong way, there are a variety of neutral ones you can use. Everyone, people, kids, etc. But it's still a girls team. I would still use girls some of the time. (Because I would forget..) Personally I really bristle at 'guys' for me it's definitely male default and not at all neutral.
Tibtom · 21/07/2021 10:46

Do you think the boys team have the same issue? If not, why not?

EyesOpening · 21/07/2021 10:36

I’m wondering if the formation of another team (not necessarily in this specific instance) for non-binaries of both sexes, might lead them to understand how having separate things for women and girls, is instrumental in helping women and girls succeed, or even just to participate, in things

ErrolTheDragon · 21/07/2021 10:30

I certainly don't think the word 'girls' should be forbidden! But the word is secondary to the reality. I don't suppose Girl Guides leaders have any qualms about using the word 'girls'. They might even be chastised if they avoided it if their group became mixed sex.

Perhaps one approach is (as with the bloody awful 'menstruator' and 'birthing people' situations) to aim for phrases like 'ok, listen up girls, everyone' ... but really not make a big issue of it either way.

Tibtom · 21/07/2021 10:06

Yes ... and personally I think it's more important it actually is a girls team (all juvenile females; only juvenile females) than that it's necessarily called a girls team.

I disagree with this. How can we stand up for girls or women when 'girl' and 'women' are forbidden words. When we allow their appropriation by an ideological belief system. By not using 'girls' in the appropriate context you are supporting the erasure of women and girls.

JoodyBlue · 21/07/2021 10:05

I do think there is a point to be made about not using the collective noun "girls". It starts to give the impression to vulnerable youth that "girls" is a word to be avoided, not valued, not quite right. It takes me back to 80s growing up. Girls were less than.. I do seriously think adults working with young people have a responsibility not just to thoughtlessly fall in with this cultural change. The girls who might want to be girls are looking to you for a steer. Not just you OP but any of us who work with young people.

Tibtom · 21/07/2021 09:59

@Barracker

If it's a girls' team, then there's a lot to be said for leading the ethos of it being 'for girls who are not ashamed of being the brilliant girls they are'

If a girl is ashamed or embarrassed to be a girl, or holds negative connotations with being a girl, or assumes the other girls 'identify' with... whatever else negative she doesn't want to associate with, the very last thing I would do as an adult is to accommodate those harmful ideas or lend them validity.

You don't mutate a positive girls' team into something else to accommodate a child who is clinging to damaging ideas of girlhood.
You don't mould the positive girls' team to suit the child's negative ideas. You mould the negative ideas instead.

The team is for girls. The child who is a girl (but doesn't want to be) is welcome, but the terms of entry are that everyone on it is a girl who accepts this is a girls' team.

This. Girls should not be made to feel bad that they are girls, however they identify. Also what is the next step? Not calling it a girls team? Then accepting anyone onto the team? And lo and behold no more girls sport.

Call them girls.

FemaleAndLearning · 21/07/2021 09:49

Transgender Trend have written about supporting trans identified pupils. Maybe this can help. You can download for free.
www.transgendertrend.com/schools-resources/

Collective Noun
Original poster
MyIronLung46 · 21/07/2021 09:38

@Funnylittlefloozie

If you're not a girl, why join a girls' team?
Fair point, but they cannot join the boys team either.
OP posts:
Original poster
MyIronLung46 · 21/07/2021 09:33

@FemaleAndLearning

It is a girl's team. Call them girls. It isn't your job to validate and act as a therapist to those girls who believe they are non-binary. I imagine you are getting extra funding based on it being a girl's team.
Hi FemaleandLearning

No funding, all completely voluntary....

OP posts:
midgemagneto · 21/07/2021 07:55

@Funnylittlefloozie

If you're not a girl, why join a girls' team?
Which is why it's best to keep this low key

Let them grow up and work things out

It is a girls team but inside it they don't need constant reminders of their sex , it serves no purpose

Highlight /use /adjust: discrimination on sex when needed and ignore it everywhere else , just like any other protected characteristic

Funnylittlefloozie · 21/07/2021 07:26

If you're not a girl, why join a girls' team?

MidnightSilence · 21/07/2021 07:11

@NiceGerbil

I suppose for me I wanted to be treated as a person first from when I was little.

Not my sex first.

That's why I'm a feminist :)

That's just me obv.

I agree with this but I don't think the impetus for change should he a girl who isn't sure she wants to be seen like 'other girls' and so everyone should be called something different or that the pretence is she isn't really a girl.
NiceGerbil · 21/07/2021 02:20

I suppose for me I wanted to be treated as a person first from when I was little.

Not my sex first.

That's why I'm a feminist :)

That's just me obv.

NiceGerbil · 21/07/2021 02:18

I personally don't like the whole come on girls hello ladies type stuff.

I'd far rather be called eg team.

Just my opinion.

FemaleAndLearning · 20/07/2021 23:01

It is a girl's team. Call them girls. It isn't your job to validate and act as a therapist to those girls who believe they are non-binary. I imagine you are getting extra funding based on it being a girl's team.

titchy · 20/07/2021 22:55

Menstruators and pre-menstruators?

ErrolTheDragon · 20/07/2021 22:47

The team is for girls. The child who is a girl (but doesn't want to be) is welcome, but the terms of entry are that everyone on it is a girl who accepts this is a girls' team.

Yes ... and personally I think it's more important it actually is a girls team (all juvenile females; only juvenile females) than that it's necessarily called a girls team. I mean, it should be possible to do both but if push comes to shove, the reality matters more than the label (cf 'girl' guides. Sad)

Wildgarlicpesto · 20/07/2021 21:17

How droll. Making up hilarious little scenarios on the internet where an adult calls a child self-obsessed for something that feels as important to them as their identity is quite something...

How droll that something as self obsessed as current identity labels has to mean that girls can't be mentioned any more lest the sex denialists are offended.