It's now on MSM - Laurel Hubbard

If fairness in men's sport was being compromised it wouldn't be complicated at all, because that's important

Seems that the times are completely unaware of Barret competing for Canada in archery eh?

Once the male body has been through puberty, restricting testosterone does not undo all of the massive benefits received.

Men should not compete in women's sports.

Intersex issues are complex. Trans issues are not.

@EmbarrassingAdmissions you're right, of course. They will fear the obvious reprisals that come with disagreeing that TWAW. What I'm talking about is the power of the mantra and its role in the hounding etc of which you speak.

TWAW is a cloak to conceal the reality that what's actually being said is MAW. It makes some men a kind of woman. TWAW makes it much harder for average people to understand what's actually going on, and to object. If these "women" are women it must be wrong to exclude then from the category of 'women', spaces, sports etc.

It makes it easier for gender identity activists to undermine reality, and I believe it has been key to the success of their movement.

How far would they have got by saying "these men should have access to women's spaces"? Not as far, and not as fast, would be my guess

You'll need to flip the thread for ease of getting to it but the confirmation of Nini's invitation is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4280607-Nini-made-it-to-the-Olympics

And all because the various commissions and bodies couldn't deliver a plain, No to a privileged millionaire on a matter as straightforward as this.

Has Nina (the woman those place Hubbard was awarded) been granted another place??

So if that graph is legit, the testosterone level allowed by the IOC is twice the highest level found in women. And this is after taking testosterone reducing drugs.

That graph needs circulating far and wide (with credited sources).

The IOC is not fit for purpose.

I am struggling to understand how men competing in women’s events will inspire more gay kids to try sports

It's the simplest thing in the world - biological men should not compete against biological women where there is an advantage to either sex derived from their biology. The way biology and sports work means that men are usually the sex with the advantage, and for some team sports there is, in addition, a very real risk to women of serous injuries (e.g. rugby). The rest is woke bullshit.

Complex my arse! They use a lot if words to justify the complexity of something very simple.

My 11 year old daughter had sports day the other day and the racing was mixed sex.

She said "it's not fair, I'm a fast girl but a slow boy".

(Mixed racing was because they were in their house teams, but in her race of 8 she was the only girl!). She did challenge the teacher so I was super proud as normally she hates talking about women's rights and sexism related to this.

I found this... sorry I don’t know who created it...

Since 2015, these rules have permitted transgender athletes to compete in female categories, provided they can show that they have been on hormone replacement therapy and lowered their testosterone levels to within ten nanomoles per litre for at least a year.

What is the range of nanomoles per litre in females?

Yet again they drag Caster Semenya into it. Whilst I have the greatest sympathy for her in an individual level, the simple fact is that her DSD (‘intersex’ condition) was not identified at birth, and she has testes. As I understand it most people with DSD do have a sex identifiable by DNA / gametes.

Well I don't get why Hubbard would be an inspiration to lesbian, gay or bisexual athletes as they can and have competed in their own sex class (male or female) and aren't trying to change their class.
Also they neglect to mention that Hubbard is over 40 and we'll passed the normal age that most competitors retire and is still recovering from a broken arm and yet is still a medal contender 🤬🤬🤯

Hubbard comes from a relatively privileged background and competed in men's weightlifting with mediocre success before swapping to compete against women.

Let's not forget the women who have been pushed down the rankings. Kuinini 'Nini' Manumua of Tonga would have been in Hubbard's place.

Nini has now also been allowed to compete in the Olympics, under a special scheme to give under-represented countries more of a chance. Without Hubbard, another woman from a developing country could have had that opportunity.

If Hubbard comes in the top three, as is likely, another woman will have been cheated of an Olympic medal.

The injustice ripples all the way down the rankings, and its influence is likely to spread across other sports. That will be Laurel Hubbard's biggest effect on international sports.

Complex? What a joke.

Thanks for the token. It is worth a read of you haven't read it before. David Walsh wants us to be kind.

Either:
Female and open category
Or
Male, female and mixed

” This now means it's worldwide and in countries where there would be very strong objections.”

If you have in mind conservative Islamic countries, bear in mind that Iran uses transsexual surgery as gay conversion.

They are transex advocates in the cause of extreme homophobia, and would assume that a transwoman had all male parts removed.

Can the so-called experts PLEASE srop pretending that the question should men be allowed in women's sports? is a difficult one? The mantra twaw has a lot to answer for. It really seems to cloud people's brains.

It's not the power of the mantra tho', is it? It's the underlying reality of the reputational harms and professional/social ostracism that will come to the person who addresses the heart of the matter that has been so well expressed by several posters here.

*'We need investment in research in order to get a better understanding of the decisions. Thirdly, it’s education. We have to better educate the general population and athletes to the nuances of the argument, instead of sensationalising and polarising it.

“The question is so complex we will probably never have an answer to it. What we have to do is look at solutions which provide the greatest number of people with the greatest confidence that it’s the right thing. At the moment, I don’t think we have that.”'*

Can the so-called experts PLEASE srop pretending that the question should men be allowed in women's sports? is a difficult one? The mantra twaw has a lot to answer for. It really seems to cloud people's brains.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ef6c59dc-d695-11eb-a220-6b7b44d7fe64?shareToken=58e0f893fa20881207044bdebfabfb69

Share token for the article @CrossPurposes posted