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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Janice Turner interviews Jess Philips in the Times

132 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 17/07/2021 09:44

Interesting read:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d8851824-e3c1-11eb-afdb-c7b01afbcfc5?shareToken=aab7b7c1ae6d3cef2a3097ebc6dfec5b

Excerpts:

She says her greatest achievement is “making women as important as bins”. Councils only had only two statutory duties: adult and children’s social services, and refuse collection. The Domestic Abuse Act adds a third: providing women’s refuges.

What surprised her when sitting on the women and equalities committee, which discussed Gender Recognition Act reforms, was the requirement of two years living “in role” as the opposite sex before changing a birth certificate. “How do you live in role as a man? Have I got to use a spanner? No one could answer that. I’ve got short hair. I’m wearing trousers. Like, it’s not an act, is it? You can’t act like a woman, because we’re all different.”

She is aghast that the modern left seeks to legitimise, even idealise, prostitution, which through her long experience in the refuge movement she sees as sexual abuse. She uses the term “prostituted women” rather than the woke euphemism “sex workers”. Moreover, she’s long been concerned about long-standing women’s refuges losing funds in favour of generic services that purport to include everyone. “If you had £1 million for domestic violence services, you’d give £800,000 to a women’s refuge based on need and numbers. Having specialist services for LGBT or male victims of domestic abuse is totally brilliant and legitimate. They’re not the same. They need different services.”

OP posts:
highame · 19/07/2021 10:50

Unfortunately I’m a gobby individual and I’m always right, so I coming back at ya. First my apology, I didn’t think, but I see using the term GC in regards to Debbie Hayton, was unacceptable but that’s as far as I go for now. I re-read the thread just in case

  1. I was a feminist (yes old bloody school) before most of you were born, even then I recognised that men were on our side just to take advantage of the ‘free love’ and some of them were just down right obnoxious. It is also the reason I have been anti trade unions because the sexism still exists in all its glory. I am still a feminist and I am and always have been proud of that fact.
  2. I posted Debbie Hayton’s piece without having read it because people have posted her stuff in the past, and I never saw any sort of condemnation, so I couldn’t understand why my action was being singled out? In the past I have read some links on FWR written by men who experience AGP, again, no condemnation??? In fact Grayson Perry and others have been lauded for upfront discussions on this very subject.
  3. Regardless of what Debbie Hayton may have done or been responsible for, they are part of this debate whether we like it or not and we, as feminist should be open to all comers as is evidenced by the continued debate with TRA’s on these threads. We are not TRA’s, we do not believe in ‘no debate’.
  4. I am a big sympathiser with transwidows and contributed to the discussion by someone who thought they shouldn’t use the term ‘widow’ and given that I am a widow, I had skin in the game and supported the term for transwidows because I understood their trauma. However, if you want @TinselAngel, to trade pain, I’m up for those rounds. Never assume I am now interested in what you all have to say, I am an upfront person, and I will take the punches without any offence.
Redapplewreath · 19/07/2021 08:52

Women are going to have to be very prepared for a 'don't frighten the horses' stealth approach from Labour. If they want to be electable they know they have to make hopeful noises to women and all other voters turned off by their identity politics obsession. They know in this time of a bloody awful government but no possible alternative that women especially are grateful for any possible crumb. And they will, as Jess is doing, make some potentially balancedish noises in the hope of getting a tick in a box. Starmer did exactly the same; said nothing, made sure women had a little hope that he might gaf about women's rights, and waited until he had the power before demonstrating that he couldn't gaf about women and sex based needs.

Anyone who lived through the Blair years knows very well, the Labour party are absolutely that cynical. Until I see someone willing to put themselves in the firing line with commitment such as Baroness Nicholson or Joanna Cherry, no. Not falling for it.

JemimaTab · 19/07/2021 01:29

I do think the Labour Party has a big problem with women. As I recall, at the last leadership contest, Keir was the only male, and far from the most impressive candidate. And yet ..
Meanwhile, the Conservative party has had 2 female leaders (and PMs), the first of them over 40 years ago. And TBH I think they will also have the first Black/Asian leader. Why isn’t Labour getting this?
Meanwhile it seems to me that Jess is just sitting on the fence. When she did the AMA with Mumsnet, she clearly didn’t expect the barrage of questions about women’s rights - I got the impression she was expecting a much easier ride. Which TBH is a mistake people often make with Mumsnet. She pulled out of the leadership race the next day, as I recall. Since then she’s clearly learned to temper her statements so as to play both sides. But she’s still on the fence and she lacks courage IMO.
There are plenty of strong fearless women out there who are risking their livelihoods in the pursuit of protecting women’s rights. But she’s not one of them.

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 18/07/2021 23:49

And me.

If we give a platform to men like Dr Hayton, then how are their wives and daughters - whom feminism should be prioritising - meant to speak? I had this argument IRL the other day.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/07/2021 13:36

Dr Hayton has yet to renounce or undo their own policy they co wrote that encourages male teaching staff who cross dress part time to use the facilities of women and girls if they feel like it.

I'm with Tinsel on this one.

Me too.

R0wantrees · 18/07/2021 13:34

@highame

Accepteed Ova but this.... What has happened to the usual high standard of FWR critical thinking on this thread?......... I emphatically do not
highname Did you miss this?
Janice Turner interviews Jess Philips in the Times
TinselAngel · 18/07/2021 13:20

@highame

I do not want to get into any sort of spat but I meant exclude a written piece. That's me finished on this one
So to clarify I, a feminist and a trans widow, am perpetuating bigotry against AGP males by suggesting they are excluded from feminist discourse and that their views not be cited as authoritative in any debate regarding women?
R0wantrees · 18/07/2021 13:16

(extract from article linked above)
"Jess Phillips thinks that transwomen — like me — are not female, but we should be treated as women. She has probably succeeded in upsetting both sides of what has become a toxic debate. (continues)

She called it the ‘de-womanising’ of language. Phillips drew attention to that as well, pointing out that the Domestic Abuse Bill avoided mention of women.

But from there Phillips tried to shuffle back to fence-sitting, claiming that trans people don’t eliminate the word ‘women’ and that the term could live happily alongside ‘people with cervixes’.

I would beg to differ. Some of us are quite happy to define the word woman as a human being whose reproductive development took the path that led to a cervix and not a prostate. Because what other definition has any real meaning at all?" (continues)

Have other women noticed how Dr Hayton determindly avoids the word 'man' and its definition in his articles? There are not 'two sides' and the implication that Hayton represents some mediating mid-ground is illusionary.

I am often minded these days of the rule, "Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are."
(H/t thebewilderness who used to dwell here)

Some of us are are quite happy to define the word man as a human being whose reproductive development took the path that led to a prostate and not a cervix, though whether we (as women) are permitted to voice such a statement, let alone be paid to do so, is something all together different.

highame · 18/07/2021 13:15

I do not want to get into any sort of spat but I meant exclude a written piece. That's me finished on this one

highame · 18/07/2021 13:14

Accepteed Ova but this....
What has happened to the usual high standard of FWR critical thinking on this thread?......... I emphatically do not

TinselAngel · 18/07/2021 13:13

@highame

Why not Tinsel. Don't we argue against the kind of bigotry that excludes? Or is that just me
I don't know what you mean. Exclude who from where?
OvaHere · 18/07/2021 13:08

@highame

Why not Tinsel. Don't we argue against the kind of bigotry that excludes? Or is that just me
Dr Hayton has yet to renounce or undo their own policy they co wrote that encourages male teaching staff who cross dress part time to use the facilities of women and girls if they feel like it.

I'm with Tinsel on this one.

highame · 18/07/2021 13:05

Why not Tinsel. Don't we argue against the kind of bigotry that excludes? Or is that just me

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 18/07/2021 13:03

@highame

www.spectator.co.uk/article/jess-phillips-and-the-assault-on-biology Article by Debbie Hayton in the Spectator. I haven't read it but she usually puts out a good GC argument
archive version for anyone who doesn't have enough article allowance: archive.is/UiCbb
TinselAngel · 18/07/2021 13:01

@Thelnebriati

In any case, the idea that you can risk assess members of a high risk groups is a red herring. You can't accurately risk assess if there hasn't been a conviction; and a politician that claims a special interest in women's issues should know how low the conviction rate is.
And it misses the chilling effect of a male in a space for abused women even if that particular male is not an abuser.

Imagine being a trans widow, fleeing to a refuge and finding a male very like your ex, in residence. It defeats the whole object of refuges.

TinselAngel · 18/07/2021 12:59

she usually puts out a good GC argument

How is it possible for a self confessed AGP male to truly support women or be in any way gender critical, for goodness sake? Hmm
What has happened to the usual high standard of FWR critical thinking on this thread?

highame · 18/07/2021 12:44

www.spectator.co.uk/article/jess-phillips-and-the-assault-on-biology Article by Debbie Hayton in the Spectator. I haven't read it but she usually puts out a good GC argument

Thelnebriati · 18/07/2021 12:24

In any case, the idea that you can risk assess members of a high risk groups is a red herring.
You can't accurately risk assess if there hasn't been a conviction; and a politician that claims a special interest in women's issues should know how low the conviction rate is.

TheMarzipanDildo · 18/07/2021 12:21

It’s so much more than what we usually get from prominent Labour politicians so I’m inclined to take it as a big win even with all the associated caveats 🤷‍♀️

Even with the more fence sitting bits I’m sure the other side would still consider this literal violence.

Redapplewreath · 18/07/2021 12:06

Very well explained, Charleyparlie

It's not (only) about the proportion of the risk that the natal male person will actively injure a natal female person when they are accepted into what is a female single sex space. This is an issue, but it's not the only issue.

The issue is that you cannot accept a natal male person into a natal female single sex space without harming the female only provision that was created in the first place to meet female only needs, and without excluding some females from that provision and therefore from any provision.

The needs of male people cannot trump the needs of female people.

ValancyRedfern · 17/07/2021 23:00

Fantastic post charleyparlie

Mollyollydolly · 17/07/2021 22:56

I used to really admire Jess, supported her for the leadership, but she lacks critical thinking and courage. I know the abuse female MPs get and I can understand what a dilemma it must be, but when there are women like Maya, Allison Bailey and Helen Joyce (to name just a few) around I cant help feeling some contempt for her now.
I don't believe for a minute she believes in gender ideology but she goes along with it .. so lost my respect. And I know she's done some good stuff but I cant accept the silence. Never one tweet to support Rosie Duffield.

OvaHere · 17/07/2021 22:54

@NotTheFunKindOfFeminist

Dawn Butler has called JP out for slagging off OJ and Novara
Maybe Dawn should do another poll. Grin

Jess vs OJ

I'm not the biggest fan of Jess for reasons already outlined eloquently by others but I have a sneaking suspicion she'd win.

NotTheFunKindOfFeminist · 17/07/2021 22:42

Dawn Butler has called JP out for slagging off OJ and Novara