Page 7 | David Aaronovitch Review of Helen Joyce's Book

Igneococcus · 2021-07-16T05:08:29+00:00

In the Times today: [[https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a9738a12-e57d-11eb-afdb-c7b01afbcfc5?shareToken=bde4e05d2955fb1682ae3da09be1f707]] Final paragaph: "I’m off the fence. I will call people by the name and pronouns they tell me they want to be called by. I am prepared to defend their right not to be discriminated against at work and in shops, to defend them against bullying and harassment. But as Joyce says so passionately, that doesn’t change reality. A penis is a male sex organ, men don’t have babies. Women exist."

JoodyBlue · 16/07/2021 09:16

What I realise from talking to men (good ones) about this, is zero conception of what it is to be in a woman's body, with its associated vulnerabilities. Also a bias to disbelieve experience anecdotally, which every woman has, in favour of "evidence". So the dominant sex will only agree that women should have the right to be heard, to speak, to have laws in our favour, with male agreement and that it is darn difficult to be heard. So the final paragraph does not surprise me - the author was on the fence, now he is off it. But what it is has taken to get him off it is concerted bravery, honesty, intellectual capactiy and the will to fight injustice. It has been very very eye opening.

334bu · 16/07/2021 09:15

Am going to request it at my local library and see what happens.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 16/07/2021 09:12

archive version in case share token lapses:

archive.is/2hW0n

KohlaParasanda · 16/07/2021 09:01

I'm looking forward to my copy of the book arriving. I hope future generations of history students will be presented with gender ideology as an example of a near miss with regards to the absurdities that whole swathes of a population can be persuaded to believe.

NonnyMouse1337 · 16/07/2021 08:56

@toffeebutterpopcorn

Too angry? I don’t think women are angry enough to be honest. Told to ‘be kind’, conditioned to be doormats...

I agree. It was a good article apart from the lame swipe at Helen.

Soontobe60 · 16/07/2021 08:50

@OvaHere

If the book has a flaw it is that Joyce is sometimes too angry and polemical. This is a book that needs to be read by those who think they might disagree with her far more than by those who already agree, so tone matters. But I suppose the truth is that without that anger and, frankly, that bravery this argument would have gone by default.

This is an interesting quote from the review.

I spent all yesterday reading the book and thought Helen was very restrained considering. Amazing how any level of righteous anger from women is alway too angry.

I’ve read a fair bit of it, but so far she’s been remarkably restrained! I shall be spending the rest of the weekend reading it all. Thanks to self isolation 🤣

TinselAngel · 16/07/2021 08:48

@OvaHere

If the book has a flaw it is that Joyce is sometimes too angry and polemical. This is a book that needs to be read by those who think they might disagree with her far more than by those who already agree, so tone matters. But I suppose the truth is that without that anger and, frankly, that bravery this argument would have gone by default.

This is an interesting quote from the review.

I spent all yesterday reading the book and thought Helen was very restrained considering. Amazing how any level of righteous anger from women is alway too angry.

13th Rule of Misogyny: Angry women are crazy. Angry men have trouble expressing themselves.

Disfordarkchocolate · 16/07/2021 08:45

Bugger, got my Aaronovitches mixed up.

Disfordarkchocolate · 16/07/2021 08:43

I'm a bit surprised, from Ben's books I thought he was leaning towards supporting self-ID.

Childrenofthestones · 16/07/2021 08:43

@Abhannmor

I'm going to donate this book to my local community school.

It will disappear off the shelf within a day of being known about.

highame · 16/07/2021 08:41

I like Aaronovitch's writing and I loved this review

AnyOldPrion · 16/07/2021 08:41

@TheHandmadeTails

Having semiconsciously harboured for many years the natal male’s fear of castration (and doesn’t this subject quickly become personal?) I realised I had been one of those closet “transphobes” repulsed by the thought of sex-change and so was newly anxious at the very least to be sympathetic to the cause.

Is this one of the reasons men are often a bit sycophantic - do the soft voice when interviewing etc? And why the vocal, aggressive TWAW men often turn out to have used transphobic slurs in the past? (Not saying DA would have done this to be clear.)

I thought that was a very interesting insight (or perhaps confirmation of a suspicion) into why so many men instinctively jump on the bandwagon for “trans rights”, yet often are found to have made earlier statements using words that are solidly considered inappropriate slurs.

toffeebutterpopcorn · 16/07/2021 08:39

Too angry? I don’t think women are angry enough to be honest. Told to ‘be kind’, conditioned to be doormats...

CloseYourEyesAndSee · 16/07/2021 08:38

@OvaHere

If the book has a flaw it is that Joyce is sometimes too angry and polemical. This is a book that needs to be read by those who think they might disagree with her far more than by those who already agree, so tone matters. But I suppose the truth is that without that anger and, frankly, that bravery this argument would have gone by default.

This is an interesting quote from the review.

I spent all yesterday reading the book and thought Helen was very restrained considering. Amazing how any level of righteous anger from women is alway too angry.

No matter how calm and not angry women are when we try to explain this we are always too angry. Then when women try really really hard not to be angry and to get the message heard like Kathleen stock did they get blasted for being too mimsy and pandering.

Original poster

Igneococcus · 16/07/2021 08:34

Comments are starting to appear now toffee

OP posts:

toffeebutterpopcorn · 16/07/2021 08:33

No comments on the article - because of the content or are they waiting to check everything carefully before it’s posted?

Sophoclesthefox · 16/07/2021 08:30

“Totalitarian declension” is my new favourite phrase.

Solid review, but the sideswipe at women being angry is unnecessary maybe it’s the castration anxiety again?

OvaHere · 16/07/2021 08:26

If the book has a flaw it is that Joyce is sometimes too angry and polemical. This is a book that needs to be read by those who think they might disagree with her far more than by those who already agree, so tone matters. But I suppose the truth is that without that anger and, frankly, that bravery this argument would have gone by default.

This is an interesting quote from the review.

I spent all yesterday reading the book and thought Helen was very restrained considering. Amazing how any level of righteous anger from women is alway too angry.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/07/2021 08:22

Looking forward to sitting in the garden with new parasol all weekend reading this, which I preordered as soon as it was announced.

toffeebutterpopcorn · 16/07/2021 08:20

Good review

OldTurtleNewShell · 16/07/2021 08:18

I'm reading the book now. It really is extraordinarily good.

Abhannmor · 16/07/2021 08:07

Looked for the Guardian review. Is there one , I couldn't find it?

Mibbiesaye · 16/07/2021 08:05

This is spot on:
"A recognisably totalitarian declension seemed to be being imposed: if you said biological sex was real then you argued with the ability of someone who felt they should be the other sex to simply assert that uncontested. That meant you were denying their “existence” as the new sex. Which was tantamount to denying their existence as a human being. Which was close to saying you wanted them and everyone like them dead. Which is the kind of thing the Nazis did. So you’re a Nazi. And we can’t let Nazis publish Nazi thoughts in books. Or speak at universities, or sully our public spaces with their terrible prejudice"

JustcameoutGC · 16/07/2021 08:02

Way to go David. I wonder how many times Helen had to redraft to dial down the polemic?

BadgertheBodger · 16/07/2021 07:54

I had the absolute pleasure yesterday of my 50 odd year old male colleague launching into a “do you know what I heard on the radio earlier? They’re trying to get rid of the word woman! Bloody ridiculous etc etc”. Then I told him about Laurel Hubbard, he was outraged and wanted to know what could be done so I offered a few options on who to write to

The more men get there the better, I’m not even bothered it’s taken them a ridiculous amount of time let’s just go for it get the men onside and then hopefully things will start to change