Page 6 | David Aaronovitch Review of Helen Joyce's Book

Igneococcus · 2021-07-16T05:08:29+00:00

In the Times today: [[https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a9738a12-e57d-11eb-afdb-c7b01afbcfc5?shareToken=bde4e05d2955fb1682ae3da09be1f707]] Final paragaph: "I’m off the fence. I will call people by the name and pronouns they tell me they want to be called by. I am prepared to defend their right not to be discriminated against at work and in shops, to defend them against bullying and harassment. But as Joyce says so passionately, that doesn’t change reality. A penis is a male sex organ, men don’t have babies. Women exist."

Mollyollydolly · 16/07/2021 11:41

It was this thread .. I could only see half of it (blocked by Jones) but he really pissed David off.
twitter.com/DAaronovitch/status/1396472947947327492

David Aaronovitch Review of Helen Joyce's Book

ScreamingMeMe · 16/07/2021 11:21

@Mollyollydolly

Great review. I think OJ sent him over the edge a few weeks ago when he was arguing with him on twitter, accusing him of transphobia. I like David, don't always agree with him, but he's rational which is a good starter.

Ooh what was David's 'crime'?

ScreamingMeMe · 16/07/2021 11:20

This is a book that needs to be read by those who think they might disagree with her far more than by those who already agree,

Like that's going to happen. Bless him, he's still got a lot to learn.

Mollyollydolly · 16/07/2021 11:08

Great review. I think OJ sent him over the edge a few weeks ago when he was arguing with him on twitter, accusing him of transphobia. I like David, don't always agree with him, but he's rational which is a good starter.

Cailin66 · 16/07/2021 11:02

@BadgertheBodger

I had the absolute pleasure yesterday of my 50 odd year old male colleague launching into a “do you know what I heard on the radio earlier? They’re trying to get rid of the word woman! Bloody ridiculous etc etc”. Then I told him about Laurel Hubbard, he was outraged and wanted to know what could be done so I offered a few options on who to write to

The more men get there the better, I’m not even bothered it’s taken them a ridiculous amount of time let’s just go for it get the men onside and then hopefully things will start to change

Do you know what station he was listening to?

Original poster

Igneococcus · 16/07/2021 10:57

That's about the extent of Barnsey's contribution to the discussion that there will be badgherkin (is there such a thing as a bad gherkin?), that the progressives have won.
It's pretty much all that Barnsey ever says, just repeats it over and over again.

OP posts:

AnotherLass · 16/07/2021 10:57

I think that DA has been somewhat GC for quite a while now - he was calling people out quite harshly on twitter for refusing to condemn the violent and sexual threats against JK Rowling.

Original poster

Igneococcus · 16/07/2021 10:55

This is the article about the culture wars, or about the non-existence of them:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/27750df2-be3a-11eb-a904-b6ed9daa84aa?shareToken=f901f0906daae00cedac40744e604379

OP posts:

Eyesofdisarray · 16/07/2021 10:53

Must read this book.
Good article by David Aaronovitch. Interesting comments too- always love to see Josephine March's comments; wonder if she's on here??

Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 16/07/2021 10:52

@BadGherkin

I’ve just read the comments, and the only “negative” posted comment was this:

Barnsey
22 MINUTES AGO
All progressive people wish Laurel well in the Olympics, a true pioneer

Pioneer? Surely sarcasm?!!

As ever JosephineMarch is spot on in the comments (& MUST be here? 👋)

Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 16/07/2021 10:50

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

BadGherkin · 16/07/2021 10:38

I’ve just read the comments, and the only “negative” posted comment was this:

Barnsey
22 MINUTES AGO
All progressive people wish Laurel well in the Olympics, a true pioneer

Floisme · 16/07/2021 10:35

@NecessaryScene

The lazy swipe at angry women though is disappointing, if commonplace.

What "lazy swipe at angry women"?

I'm referring to this: If the book has a flaw it is that Joyce is sometimes too angry and polemical. This is a book that needs to be read by those who think they might disagree with her far more than by those who already agree, so tone matters. I worded my post badly as DA was specifically referring to Joyce rather than women in general. But angry women do make people uncomfortable and I'm done with this 'we'd have listened to you sooner if only you'd been nicer' aka 'tone matters' excuse of an argument.

Plus on Twitter at any rate (not read the book yet) Helen Joyce is as rational and restrained as they come.

Abhannmor · 16/07/2021 10:22

@Freespeecher

I normally disagree with David Aaronovitch but fair play to him here. Yesterday's article was about when he belatedly realised that Communist Cuba might not be a worker's utopia after all so, you know, he tends to get there in the end.

I disagree with him about the Iraq War which he supported. Strange bedfellows but needs must and all that.

NecessaryScene · 16/07/2021 10:09

The lazy swipe at angry women though is disappointing, if commonplace.

What "lazy swipe at angry women"?

mollythemeerkat · 16/07/2021 10:09

@OldTurtleNewShell

I'm reading the book now. It really is extraordinarily good.

Me too. DA talks about "intellectual clarity", which I think is spot on. Its also interesting the things that peaked him and worth taking note of in order to use these in discussion with other men. I`ve tended to find that women who havnt read up on the issues, tend to focus more on the safeguarding and plight of teens.

Shedbuilder · 16/07/2021 10:07

David Aaronovitch has a wife and three daughters.

Manderleyagain · 16/07/2021 10:03

@badpuma

He did an article about the culture war a little while ago in which in was definitely dismissed as women being silly so it looks like the book has peaked him.

That's annoying, and a bit surprising to me. One of the earlier things I read on this issue was an article by him defending the right of wpuk and others to meet about this, and about the strong efforts to prevent them talking. It was in spring or summer 2018? He also talked about no -platforming if Julie bindel on question time (I'm pretty sure) about the same time. He knew the score then, with his free speech hat on, though he didn't pass his own opinion on the issue he was defending the right to discuss it.

I think professional opinion havers are not always that consistent! Hopefully he's properly understood now. Well done Helen.

Floisme · 16/07/2021 10:00

I've not read the book yet but I'm enjoying the reviews, including this one. If we're going to win this we need people to get off the fence or change their minds so I'm not going to carp about that.
The lazy swipe at angry women though is disappointing, if commonplace. I'm sure Aaronovitch considers himself a thoughtful guy so maybe he could have a think about why that makes him so uncomfortable.

Grimacingfrog · 16/07/2021 09:55

@Shedbuilder

The realisation of how fundamentally misogynistic even intelligent men who are capable of seeing things from all sides (Aaronovitch has moved from the left to something more right) leaves me in quiet despair. John Ronson, Louis Theroux: I'm never going to be able to be in the same room as them again.

I hope when the Hay Festival starts up again (Aaronovitch is usually there a lot, interviewing and commentating) women will take the opportunity to point this out to him.

I know what you mean, but I've found (in my experience) men are on the whole quite understanding of why we're upset (unless they're misogynistic wankers). It's actually women that have tried to shame other women in this debate.

KohlaParasanda · 16/07/2021 09:50

@EveryoneElseDoes: "I'm also very glad that more prominent men are starting to wake up and get onside because they will not be targeted in the same way as women doing the same have been for years and years, and I fully expect that men's support will make a big difference to who listens and what gets done.

I am simultaneously furious that that is the case."

Yes! Just as I'm furious that my physical safety as a woman depends more upon men's socialisation and impulse control than upon my own decisions and actions. Especially when I'm simultaneously being instructed to believe that I'm a bad person for not wanting a male bodied person sharing my prison cell, on my women's rugby team, or representing me on a women-specific issue.

Shedbuilder · 16/07/2021 09:46

The realisation of how fundamentally misogynistic even intelligent men who are capable of seeing things from all sides (Aaronovitch has moved from the left to something more right) leaves me in quiet despair. John Ronson, Louis Theroux: I'm never going to be able to be in the same room as them again.

I hope when the Hay Festival starts up again (Aaronovitch is usually there a lot, interviewing and commentating) women will take the opportunity to point this out to him.

Datun · 16/07/2021 09:25

Obviously I'm delighted that more men are getting off the fence. And yet at the same time fucking annoyed that they were on it in the first place. And for soooo long.

Ordinary men in the street might be forgiven for not noticing, but journalists? No.

I am glad for the article, though. It's certainly a goal to convince more people.

EveryoneElseDoes · 16/07/2021 09:24

I'm very glad that DA has written this article despite the muscle-straining eye-roll I experienced at the "angry woman" trope and the idea that if only women expressed their excellent points nicely and calmly then they would be listened to. It's staggering naivety and ignorance rather than malice, I accept.

I'm also very glad that more prominent men are starting to wake up and get onside because they will not be targeted in the same way as women doing the same have been for years and years, and I fully expect that men's support will make a big difference to who listens and what gets done.

I am simultaneously furious that that is the case.

heathspeedwell · 16/07/2021 09:18

Can't wait to read this book, Helen is a gifted writer.

I'm getting my copy tomorrow and I'm not leaving the sofa until I've read it all. (Except maybe to make a cup of tea and grab a chocolate biscuit!).