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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is being trans a choice?

208 replies

user888 · 13/07/2021 20:15

Spotted in Does anyone ever wonder how this will end? Thought it might be worth its own thread. Maybe not. We'll see.

OP posts:
Chickenyhead · 16/07/2021 03:50

@NiceGerbil

B. New rule. Penises are just skin. Girls should be taught not to react if an unexpected one is there.
Not on my watch.

Having been raped and sexually assaulted several times.

CuriousPanda · 16/07/2021 03:49

@Chickenyhead

Penis people coming by far the majority of violent crime in this country.

As a vagina person, being a woman by sex (a protected characteristic) I should not be discriminated against by being forced to share safe spaces with people with a penis.

Separate and equal safe spaces with tailored facilities are appropriate.

Using crime statistics as a justification for prejudice and discrimination is a practice I would rather not enable.

And neither is the idea of "separate but equal". Or the idea that being forced to share spaces, rather than excluding people from them, is what constitutes discrimination.

NiceGerbil · 16/07/2021 03:49

B.
New rule.
Penises are just skin. Girls should be taught not to react if an unexpected one is there.

IsItAKindofDream · 16/07/2021 03:47

When you're, for instance, using a bathroom, what genitals other people have in their pants is really none of your business.

So, you are out with your 9-year old niece, and she goes into a public toilet on her own. A person with a penis follows her in. Do you
A) Go into the toilet with her to check she is safe
B) Not worry - most penis owners are harmless so her Mum won’t mind you not checking she is OK?

NiceGerbil · 16/07/2021 03:46

If it's female people who are subject to X, and not males.

Then there are no acceptable terms any more.

Even using juvenile / adult females is a problem as many are now using female to include transwomen.

As girl/ woman means identity which you can't know until you ask, and the thing is related to sex. Those words are not correct. Because males irrespective of identity are not subject to it.

Words have meanings. To change meanings and then say oh but you can use them for the old meanings as well. Makes no sense. There is no clarity.

When a school for juvenile human females is bombed. The action is based on the belief that they should not be educated. The children are female sex. So they can't be referred to as girls.

CuriousPanda · 16/07/2021 03:46

@NiceGerbil

And then this comes along and...

Sex is trivial
Internal gender is all that matters
Any discussion about our rights- the oppression because of our sex. Cannot mention women or girls.
We must be called menstruators, people with a womb etc. We must be referred to by the very organs that are the reason for our poor treatment.

Nope, no one is saying you have to be referred as a person who menstruates in any context other than discussing menstruation specifically.

These are strictly medical terms for use in strictly medical context.

Chickenyhead · 16/07/2021 03:44

Penis people coming by far the majority of violent crime in this country.

As a vagina person, being a woman by sex (a protected characteristic) I should not be discriminated against by being forced to share safe spaces with people with a penis.

Separate and equal safe spaces with tailored facilities are appropriate.

CuriousPanda · 16/07/2021 03:43

@IsItAKindofDream
Men need to push back against being stereotypically “masculine” - while staying as “men”.

Why? Why do people have to conform to the labels you want to impose on them? Why does anyone have to "stay as men" when they don't want to?

And men and women need to support them in that.

Well, you're not exactly supporting anyone when you're calling them "fetishists".

CuriousPanda · 16/07/2021 03:41

@NiceGerbil
So where is the fight against countries where sex role is much more limiting?

This is a typical conservative talking point, a deflection historically used against feminists. "Where is feminism is Muslim countries?"

The fact is, we oppose restrictive gender roles there, too.

Chickenyhead · 16/07/2021 03:40

GrinGrinGrin

Do you mean men or transwomen daring to wear a dress?

Not clear what you mean.

IsItAKindofDream · 16/07/2021 03:39

It means persistently being referred to with masculine names, labels, pronouns, it means systemic pressure to dress, present, and refer to self in a masculine way.

Women have for years pushed back against having to dress, present etc in a stereotypically “feminine” way. Men need to push back against being stereotypically “masculine” - while staying as “men”. And men and women need to support them in that.

That's what trans women have to go through before, and often after coming out, and that's where you're trying to push trans women back in.

You are talking nonsense. I will support any man or women in pushing against stereotypes. You are the one trying to push people into repressive little boxes labelled “masculine” and “feminine”.

CuriousPanda · 16/07/2021 03:38

This reply has been deleted

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Chickenyhead · 16/07/2021 03:38

Toilets? Oh. Is this about toilets?

NiceGerbil · 16/07/2021 03:37

'It means persistently being referred to with masculine names, labels, pronouns, it means systemic pressure to dress, present, and refer to self in a masculine way.

That's what trans women have to go through before, and often after coming out, and that's where you're trying to push trans women back in.'

So where is the fight against countries where sex role is much more limiting?

Where a trans or non binary female has to cover entirely? And will be punished if she doesn't?
Where your sex role means forced marriage, rape. Where female people are the property of males?

How can it feel for a transman in those circs? I've not seen any from the major UK trans orgs. If anyone has info I'd be interested to see it.

CuriousPanda · 16/07/2021 03:37

@NiceGerbil

We are to ignore the reality of what being female means around the world.

And if it must be discussed then the rules mean. Things like.
Juvenile humans with vaginas usually leave education when they start menstruating.
People with vaginas subject to rape as a weapon of war in X.
School for children with ovaries bombed, 50 dead.

It is dehumanising in the extreme.

No one's actually stopping you from using "women" and "girls" in everyday language. Expressions like "people with ovaries" are only being used in strictly medical context. You're overreacting to a strawman you've constructed in your mind.
CuriousPanda · 16/07/2021 03:34

@Chickenyhead

I mean imagine being a woman by sex, raped and sexually abused all of your life, now being expected to share safe spaces with penis owners.

Horrifying.

When you're, for instance, using a bathroom, what genitals other people have in their pants is really none of your business.
IsItAKindofDream · 16/07/2021 03:32

@NiceGerbil

And then this comes along and...

Sex is trivial
Internal gender is all that matters
Any discussion about our rights- the oppression because of our sex. Cannot mention women or girls.
We must be called menstruators, people with a womb etc. We must be referred to by the very organs that are the reason for our poor treatment.

Yep - and the “Be Kind” brigade don’t realise how unkind they are being to women, children, gay men, lesbians etc.
NiceGerbil · 16/07/2021 03:32

We are to ignore the reality of what being female means around the world.

And if it must be discussed then the rules mean. Things like.
Juvenile humans with vaginas usually leave education when they start menstruating.
People with vaginas subject to rape as a weapon of war in X.
School for children with ovaries bombed, 50 dead.

It is dehumanising in the extreme.

Chickenyhead · 16/07/2021 03:32

Transwomen and women by sex (a protected characteristic) are entirely separate and equal.

Neither is more important and neither should encroach on the others safe spaces.

Separate safe spaces for each, with tailored services for their needs.

CuriousPanda · 16/07/2021 03:28

@IsItAKindofDream

Trans women forced to live as "men"

I know it has been asked a gazillion times on here, but I’ve never seen it answered, but what does “living as a man” or “living as a woman” actually mean? I can only see it meaning stereotypes.

CuriousPanda can you explain how it isn’t that?

It means persistently being referred to with masculine names, labels, pronouns, it means systemic pressure to dress, present, and refer to self in a masculine way.

That's what trans women have to go through before, and often after coming out, and that's where you're trying to push trans women back in.

NiceGerbil · 16/07/2021 03:28

If you disagree you are named cis, even if that is not something you identify as. While being told misgendering is terrible.

We are told that concerns about male people and what might happen are bigoted.
That males will attack and rape us anyway, so what's the problem.

And see are told that we can have no words to describe the billions of vagina people in the world as a group.

NiceGerbil · 16/07/2021 03:24

And then this comes along and...

Sex is trivial
Internal gender is all that matters
Any discussion about our rights- the oppression because of our sex. Cannot mention women or girls.
We must be called menstruators, people with a womb etc. We must be referred to by the very organs that are the reason for our poor treatment.

Chickenyhead · 16/07/2021 03:24

Me too.

Cis my arse.

IsItAKindofDream · 16/07/2021 03:23

@NiceGerbil

I was forced to live in a confusing world where I was a person but everyone saw a girl/ woman and treated me as per social role.

I've never identified as girl/ woman. I am female and until very recently those words meant sex. Still do to 99.9 percent of the world (or the equivalent in other languages).

That makes me trans according to the definitions I've seen.

Me too.

That’s why being misgendered as “c*s” really offends me.

NiceGerbil · 16/07/2021 03:21

I was forced to live in a confusing world where I was a person but everyone saw a girl/ woman and treated me as per social role.

I've never identified as girl/ woman. I am female and until very recently those words meant sex. Still do to 99.9 percent of the world (or the equivalent in other languages).

That makes me trans according to the definitions I've seen.

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