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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Does anyone ever wonder how this will end?

609 replies

dyslek · 12/07/2021 21:22

I can see three scenarios.

  1. women lose and we end up living in some nightmarish high tec version of ancient Rome, where woman and children is a sub human resource to be exploited in anyway a man wants at an given moment.
  2. the mass hysteria quietly dies down and every kind of pretents this was never a thing (and in fact it was only those nasty feminists making a fuss that caused all this misunderstanding in the first place).
  3. due to the sheer insanity of gender idology, society slowly starts to listen to women and the horror of the unfairness wakes everyone up to womans humanity and gender stereotypes and finally totally abandoned and we all live happly ever after.
OP posts:
OldCrone · 13/07/2021 00:40

Nothing about anyone's physiology requires referring to them as a "man" or "woman" that is all simply decided by society.

You don't seem to understand. Those are definitions. The definition of 'man' is 'adult male human'. The definition of woman is 'adult female human'.

You seem to be arguing for words to mean whatever you want them to mean. But that doesn't aid communication. We have to have definitions in order to communicate.

Aparallaxia · 13/07/2021 00:40

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CuriousPanda · 13/07/2021 00:36

@OldCrone

Gender identity, the labels of "man" and "woman", or gendered terms and pronouns like "he", "she", or "they".

That doesn't answer my question.

Man = adult male human
Woman = adult female human

He = pronoun used for person (or animal) of the male sex
She = pronoun used for person (or animal) of the female sex

What does it mean to 'be another gender'?

Nope, all of those are gender, i.e. socially constructed labels built around sex that are not inherently part of sex.

Nothing about anyone's physiology requires referring to them as a "man" or "woman" that is all simply decided by society.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/07/2021 00:26

That doesn't answer my question.

Man = adult male human
Woman = adult female human

He = pronoun used for person (or animal) of the male sex
She = pronoun used for person (or animal) of the female sex

What does it mean to 'be another gender'?

Quite. It's meaningless in-group lingo.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/07/2021 00:24

Well, it's a baseless lie you keep telling about what "trans activists" believe, so... What else is there to do to refute it, considering literally nothing backs it up?

You haven't refuted it, and there is evidence to back it up. Some TRAs are spectacularly homophobic.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/07/2021 00:19

So in other words, "transing the gay away" is not a thing either.
You can't have it both ways.

Don't be silly. The way it was meant by pp, neither of our posts have any bearing on because it is about genuine sexual orientation more than identity. You do realise that sexual orientation isn't just an identity?

GrimDamnFanjo · 13/07/2021 00:18

@Hdhdjejdj

Looking at twitter I can’t see a way forward. There will be no compromise. I think people are going to get hurt.
I tend to agree. I find small pockets of hope when women group together and discuss amongst themselves.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/07/2021 00:17

So by this standard, a trans woman who underwent surgery is incapable of committing rape.

Well yes, in the tiny percentage of MTF trans people that applies to. They can still sexually assault, obviously.

OldCrone · 13/07/2021 00:15

Gender identity, the labels of "man" and "woman", or gendered terms and pronouns like "he", "she", or "they".

That doesn't answer my question.

Man = adult male human
Woman = adult female human

He = pronoun used for person (or animal) of the male sex
She = pronoun used for person (or animal) of the female sex

What does it mean to 'be another gender'?

CuriousPanda · 13/07/2021 00:15

@Ereshkigalangcleg

That's a dishonest strawman that's been wholly refuted by trans people

Well, they disagree, anyway. Not sure that counts as "refuted".

Well, it's a baseless lie you keep telling about what "trans activists" believe, so... What else is there to do to refute it, considering literally nothing backs it up?
OldCrone · 13/07/2021 00:12

So by this standard, a trans woman who underwent surgery is incapable of committing rape.

Well, yes, obviously. What point are you trying to make?

A male person who has had their penis removed is still capable of committing sexual assault and is still likely to be bigger and stronger than most women. And is still male. And could still be a rapist if they had raped someone before having their penis removed.

Blibbyblobby · 13/07/2021 00:11

[quote CuriousPanda]@Itreallytiedtheroomtogether
And on your later point - why is any of this anti-trans? Where is your discussion on how this effects women and girls - we exist too and have equal rights to trans people.
How does recognizing trans women as women infringe on non-trans women's rights?[/quote]
Females have rights/protections separate to males for these reasons:

Because males statistically pose a physical and/or sexual risk to females. Statistically means not all males, or even the majority of males, but enough that the prevalence of offending in the male population is significantly higher than the female.

Because the interaction between a society structured around families self-supporting through private earnings and the more demanding role of the female in reproduction and breast-feeding puts mothers at an economic disadvantage, and in a capitalist society that translates as a lack of power relative to males.

Because a history of gendered roles based on sex puts female people under social pressure to take on more of the unpaid domestic and caring labour than males, again putting female people at an economic and social disadvantage.

Because social norms that have evolved due to the above result in unconscious bias about the abilities and aptitudes of females vs males that create unfair disadvantages to female people in domestic, work, cultural, political and social arenas beyond the core causes above.

Historically these protections and rights were called "Women's rights" , but that's only because Woman and Female were synonymous. They were just as much Female rights.

Trans women undoubtedly also suffer challenges and disadvantages, but unless you can show that statistically trans womens behaviour and outcomes are the same as female people rather than male in the specific areas listed above, it disadvantages female people to take away their single-sex rights and protections and give them to male women who don't have the same disadvantages.

That absolutely does not mean that we should not do anything to help and support trans women with their own needs and challenges, it just means that redefining all the existing single-sex support wholesale to be mixed-sex without considering whether it actually meets its intended purpose any more is not the right way to do it, for female people or for trans women.

So even if society changes the definition of Women from a sex to a gender, including trans women and excluding trans men, it is not a de facto reason to include Trans Women in these pre-existing rights - rather, it's a reason to rename them as Female rights to better reflect their purpose given the redefinition of the name Woman, and separate to that, consider what rights and protections this new, gender-based group of Woman may need.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/07/2021 00:11

That's a dishonest strawman that's been wholly refuted by trans people

Well, they disagree, anyway. Not sure that counts as "refuted".

CuriousPanda · 13/07/2021 00:09

@Ereshkigalangcleg

No one is basing gender identity on sexual orientation, and most trans people identify as bi or gay, not straight. Meaning that most of the time, transition is "transing" the gay in.

No, just calling straight "gay" doesn't have that effect.

So in other words, "transing the gay away" is not a thing either. You can't have it both ways.
CuriousPanda · 13/07/2021 00:08

@OldCrone

Gender identity is based on persistent, explicitly stated desire to be another gender.

What does it mean to 'be another gender' @CuriousPanda?

Do you mean they want to be the opposite sex? Or just to not conform to stereotypes for their sex? Or something else?

Gender identity, the labels of "man" and "woman", or gendered terms and pronouns like "he", "she", or "they".
CuriousPanda · 13/07/2021 00:06

@OldCrone

Do you think there is no issue with a woman being put in the same prison cell as say, a female rapist?

In British law, the offence of rape can only be committed by someone with a penis. There are no female rapists in UK prisons.

A woman can only be convicted of rape if she assists a rapist, for example by restraining the victim.

Or guarded by male guards, who rape female prisoners at far higher rates than trans inmates?

Do you have any links to statistics on that? I'd be interested in seeing them, especially following the recent judicial review where there appeared to be a high number of sexual assaults on female prisoners, but it wasn't clear whether they had been carried out by prisoners or guards.

@OldCrone In British law, the offence of rape can only be committed by someone with a penis. There are no female rapists in UK prisons. So by this standard, a trans woman who underwent surgery is incapable of committing rape.
dyslek · 13/07/2021 00:04

I agree, for capatilism it makes sense, not just in products but in virtue signalling with out having to actually change anything for the better.

OP posts:
OvaHere · 13/07/2021 00:03

@OldCrone

Do you think there is no issue with a woman being put in the same prison cell as say, a female rapist?

In British law, the offence of rape can only be committed by someone with a penis. There are no female rapists in UK prisons.

A woman can only be convicted of rape if she assists a rapist, for example by restraining the victim.

Or guarded by male guards, who rape female prisoners at far higher rates than trans inmates?

Do you have any links to statistics on that? I'd be interested in seeing them, especially following the recent judicial review where there appeared to be a high number of sexual assaults on female prisoners, but it wasn't clear whether they had been carried out by prisoners or guards.

I don't think Panda has the first clue about the UK or UK law.
Secondbellini · 13/07/2021 00:03

It isn’t just genderism though. There is also porn, surrogacy and violence against women.

It is just horrendous for young women.

Articus · 13/07/2021 00:01

I always wonder was the ultimate goal of trans ideology. I couldn’t see what was the gain in making perfectly healthy bodies go under dubious treatment to resemble the opposite sex without good statistics about results. At present I think is money driven. A whole new market, it’s like discovering a new continent, plenty of comercial promise from cloths, surgeries, books, events, products, products, products...

OldCrone · 13/07/2021 00:01

Gender identity is based on persistent, explicitly stated desire to be another gender.

What does it mean to 'be another gender' @CuriousPanda?

Do you mean they want to be the opposite sex? Or just to not conform to stereotypes for their sex? Or something else?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/07/2021 23:59

I wish some of you cheerleaders would do some reading, and some thinking.

Good luck with that!

Hdhdjejdj · 12/07/2021 23:58

Looking at twitter I can’t see a way forward. There will be no compromise. I think people are going to get hurt.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/07/2021 23:58

No one is basing gender identity on sexual orientation, and most trans people identify as bi or gay, not straight. Meaning that most of the time, transition is "transing" the gay in.

No, just calling straight "gay" doesn't have that effect.

Mibbiesaye · 12/07/2021 23:56

Are you seriously using the 'will be raped anyway' argument?

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