Does anyone ever wonder how this will end?

That historical hatred and bigotry against a minority was replaced by understanding and equality. And the younger generation will replace those with old bigoted feelings around gender stereotypes, and hopefully the patriarchy and glass ceilings will finally be smashed as well.

The future looks bright.

hyperbolic to think that trans women competing in sport will lead to women and children being treated as a sub-human resource

Unpack that a bit.

In every situation where TW wish to have full access to a female only space, it is framed as a situation in which TW have the power to insist and female people's consent is not relevant. In fact you can find many threads here where female people pointing out that they don't consent and the issues for some females are severe to the point of excluding them have received answers that range from 'you can't stop me' to 'I hear you, I'm sorry you don't like it but I'm going to do it anyway'.

The power differential is blatant. It isn't the space that is wanted, the female people in it are essential too. The female people aren't seen as equals. The female people aren't to have a say in this, and are constantly scolded (and threatened with sexual violence and murder on social media) for arguing back.

Yes, there's no getting around the aspect here that female people are seen as less human, a lower caste group. And that to insist on using female single sex spaces regardless of consent or care for impact is making use of female people for personal benefit. It doesn't sound nice, it isn't very nice, but it's the elephant that has to be addressed. Again, not meaning harm isn't the same as not doing harm.

@Redapplewreath

The impact on women is real. If you care about inclusion, why aren't you interested in trying to aim for a future that works for everyone instead of trying to make those women shut up and hide their difficulties with male people being given total freedom that harms female people? Why is the utopia one where women just get under the bus and pretend they like being there?

This doesn't work for all women. That isn't going to go away. Until that is faced and compromises found, this problem will not end. I'd personally like a future where it did.* [my emphasis]

Nothing ... nothing would make me happier than a world in which genuine Compromise was sought. Unfortunately, some people approach these issues as being a 'Zero Sum Game' They look only for a win / lose outcome ... which is sad because a win/win outcome is possible.

As for the whole Transsexual Rights argument ... nope, we have the rights we need ... and if we are minded too ( I am) we can live a quiet & happy life.

Perhaps, the next time a TRA says something outlandish GC women might seek to discover if that particular TRA is indeed a Transsexual (they wont be ... they almost never are) and then treat their outpourings of wisdom with the contempt that they deserve and leave Transseexual Women out of the argument altogether.

jus' thinkin aloud ...

Do you honestly think that their end goal is treating women and children as "sub-human resources"?

It may not be the intention. Women and children need them to realise it is the outcome. Not meaning harm isn't the same as not doing harm.

Moaning at people for pointing out the downsides of how it affects them and suggesting that its mean of them to do so doesn't do much to solve the problem either. Listening, and then thinking of solutions that work for everyone is the only way forward out of this mess. It is going to have to involve accepting that some female people cannot put aside their sex based needs, that not everyone will be prepared to abandon their sex based thinking for gender based belief, and there does have to be a recognised difference in need and provisions that caters for TW and for natal females, and for those two different beliefs to live peacefully alongside each other.

Indeed.

Do you honestly think that their end goal is treating women and children as "sub-human resources"?

They may not realise it, but as soon as they say a trans woman's need for the emotional safety they get from competing, changing or whatever as "just one of the girls" takes precedence over what the female people whose participation is necessary to make that happen may want, they are indeed making female people into resources for the benefit of male.

As I said in the previous post, no. I think they're lazy, blinkered and foolish.

Seconded.

@user888

Yes the toilet chat is inescapable and tedious. There are certainly bigger issues at play. Both sides claim that the other is obsessed with toilets. We clearly need a solution and "we just want to pee" doesn't cut it.

Do you truly believe that the majority of people who are in favour of trans women being able to participate in women's sports or use women's changing rooms have nefarious motivations? Do you honestly think that their end goal is treating women and children as "sub-human resources"?

hyperbolic to think that trans women competing in sport will lead to women and children being treated as a sub-human resource

Yes, and you're the one that has said it, so sure, it is.

The objection is TW playing women's sport, and it's one part of a picture which includes rapists accessing victims in prison, women losing single sex provision in healthcare, rape counselling and DV settings, a shift in language and rights to divorce women from their reproductive rights, lesbians having to go back to underground networks to hide from men who want to interlope on their spaces and networks, and on and on.

None of that's hyperbole. All of it is currently occuring, or being campaigned for.

I'm sure many doing the campaigning have malign intent. I'm sure plenty more are just too lazy, blinkered and foolish to see what they're doing. It doesn't really matter. It needs to be fought against, and we will.

Sorry, that should be "hyperbolic to think that trans women competing in sport will lead to women and children being treated as a sub-human resource"!

1) women lose and we end up living in some nightmarish high tec version of ancient Rome, where woman and children is a sub human resource to be exploited in anyway a man wants at an given moment.

Whatever your views on this topic, surely we can agree that it is hyperbolic to think that trans women competing in sport is a million miles away from women and children being treated as 'a sub human resource to be exploited in anyway'? I despair a little that this debate has become so hyper-polarised that neither side seems capable of accepting that the other has non-malign motivations.

I do wonder what will become of those who want to identify as the opposite sex and receive “validation”in their identity when sex has been abolished as a category. There is no reasonable justification for separating sports, prisons, hospital wards, changing rooms or anything else by gender identity. Everything will become “all gender”. It seems like a bit of a Pyrrhic victory for the trans identifying, no?

Sadly I don't think a murder would change anything. They'd blame the victim and the public would go oh but she was a bigot wasn't she.

I'm very pessimistic. I think it'll all quiet down and everyone will claim it was just the crazy feminists being hysterical, no one actually sterilised little kids, move along now.

@GromblesofGrimbledon It was clear of course in my head and I thought by the clue of shy bladder/need to use a stall, but on rereading I see how it reads.

Blokes in frocks, fine. Less happy for women to waltz in, whatever they’re wearing, but I do take pity on them in their queues and wouldn’t stand in their way. As many have suggested, make the men’s all gender – expand male ‘bandwidth’ in general. That’s the only real solution I see to this. I'm fairly confident there wouldn't be an invasion big enough to discomfit the mens.

If every place had individual little rooms, like they do at the Wallace Collection and Whole Foods Picadilly (I’m something of an expert in public conveniences in London), that would be great, but few have the space for that, or even third spaces.

Sorry to go on about toilets. They’re inescapable.

Thanks for the clarification! This makes sense.

I'd like to think a 3rd space would keep everyone happy but it doesn't seem to. TRAs don't want it because transwomen want the "validation" of being around women. And that's whether or not women want it. What women want is irrelevant.

user888 said earlier that he's male. He's happy for the men in dresses to use the men's with him.

@user888

Eh nah. Dress as you please. Sex segregated spaces are still required. You're not welcome to pee next to me if you've got a cock, unless the toilets are explicitly mixed sex with secure cubicles and women have the choice of another single-sex option.

I don't care what you wrap your cock up in: dress, mini skirt, ball-gown. Knock yourself out. But keep it out of women and girls' spaces.

If you don't mind men in women's private spaces then you can campaign for 3rd spaces. You don't get to dictate what most other women want.

secular111

Unfortunately I fear the murder scenario is entirely possible. Equally unfortunately I don’t think it will be a catalyst for change. It is amazing what devotees to a cause will make excuses for (see the recent indecent exposure incident) and victim blaming continues to be rife especially where a woman is the victim.

[quote GromblesofGrimbledon]@Sonarl

Sex is decided at the moment of conception when a sperm penetrates an egg. Women and men result from female and male embryos. How they dress as adults, what hobbies they enjoy, whether they like wearing high heels, or not is all personality.

My God how I wish the world would just accept and embrace this. Surely this is the definition of freedom. 👆🏻

It won't happen though, sadly... You can't jump up and down like a child shouting "look at me! look at me!" if it's just personality. You can't get the attention and "validation" you so desperately seek if you're just another boring bastard that no one cares about, and heels and lipstick does not a personality make. [/quote]
My God how I wish the world would just accept and embrace this.

Same here. I for one welcome men in dresses into the fold. You’re welcome to pee with me, next stall down (some of us have shy bladders).

With a murder.

Likely by a very militant male TRA/MRA/incel, of a prominent female activist/campaigner, with a social media published 'justification'.

Whereupon those allied to the TRA's/MRA's/incels will scramble to get away from any association with them, including leading retailers, universities and government organisations with Stonewall logos on any literature. The Guardian will try to purge all of its pro-TRA columns. Supporters on Twitter and Facebook will go remarkably quiet as people trawl through their timelines looking for past evidence of TRA support. HR departments will frantically try to edit their firms diversity edicts and shared toilets will be rapidly returned to normal configurations.

This is why it is so important to screenshot and archive everything and anything TRA's/MRA/incel supporters do and say, using tools like Wayback Machine. People will be trying to deny their allegiance to the transgender cause and continue as if nothing had happened. It will take years to hunt them all down and get them out of their jobs if they have a role that involves a safeguarding element.