Does anyone ever wonder how this will end?

@Marmaladee yes I'm old. I went on take back the night marches in the 70s. But I loathe the Daily Fail and Piers Morgan. Am I the wrong sort of terf?

Because gay isn't a choice you find the same proportion of gay people in every culture

The same does not seem to be true if trans suggesting something else at play

Being gay isn't a choice, but being trans is?
That's what you seem to be saying and surely that's ridiculous - people who are trans won't choose to be trans just like someone who is gay or lesbian won't either!

If trans is "I say I'm actually the opposite sex" and that is simply what it means, then yes, it can be a choice. Is that not what you believe?

Perhaps, the next time a TRA says something outlandish GC women might seek to discover if that particular TRA is indeed a Transsexual (they wont be ... they almost never are) and then treat their outpourings of wisdom with the contempt that they deserve and leave Transseexual Women out of the argument altogether

Ive seen many many posts referring to TRA and caveating with ‘not transpeople’

Always interesting though that it's only ever female people expected to step up in this way. Or to put others before themselves. Or to accept being spoken to like naughty children without losing their tempers and being rude in reply.

Isn't it.

[quote Imasoulman]@PandorasMailbox

Being trans isn't a choice.

There are also huge numbers of trans people who would stand shoulder to shoulder with you to fight for single sex spaces etc but a lot of feminists seem to view all trans people as an enemy.
Its sad and its a vicious circle[/quote]
Why don't you ask yourself why that is. Many of us were allies until all the threats and abuse started.

Where are all these trans people who want to stand shoulder to shoulder with us? Why aren't they calling out the abuse, why aren't they protesting against men in women's sports, why aren't they speaking up for women in Scotland, New Zealand, Canada and America?

Women are waking up to the reality of what the phrase 'trans rights' really means for us, our families and especially our children. I'm sorry that innocent trans people might suffer, but there's much more at stake here and we refuse to be threatened and made to feel guilty for standing up for our rights.

Women have fought long and hard for every inch of ground and we'll be damned if we'll give it up for the feelings of a few men.

Sorry, but there it is.

There are also huge numbers of trans people who would stand shoulder to shoulder with you to fight for single sex spaces etc but a lot of feminists seem to view all trans people as an enemy.

I've seen the issues repeatedly and patiently explained to you every time you raise this point on many threads.

I do apologise for the poor experience of female socialisation you are still receiving on this matter from female people who insist on caring about and focusing on the needs and issues of female people instead of responsibly putting themselves aside to manage the bigger picture and other people's obviously important needs and feelings.

Always interesting though that it's only ever female people expected to step up in this way. Or to put others before themselves. Or to accept being spoken to like naughty children without losing their tempers and being rude in reply.

Genuine trans people should resisting self ID as much as women are.

Totally agree with this. If self ID comes in, it will be used by predatory males to gain access to victims, and that is going to do the genuine trans community no favours whatsoever.

Being gay isn't a choice. There's a big difference between someone's sexuality and them being trans.

Being gay isn't a choice, but being trans is?
That's what you seem to be saying and surely that's ridiculous - people who are trans won't choose to be trans just like someone who is gay or lesbian won't either!
You just are.
Just like I'm not and know I'm not.

@MishyJDI
That historical hatred and bigotry against a minority was replaced by understanding and equality. And the younger generation will replace those with old bigoted feelings around gender stereotypes, and hopefully the patriarchy and glass ceilings will finally be smashed as well

The future looks bright

I’m trying to follow what you’re saying here. Historical bigotry was replaced by understanding and equality, yes. See eg the introduction of same-sex marriage. That legal change was in 2014. Sure, there’s still homophobia out there in society, but things like changing the law on marriage sends a pretty strong signal that our society is moving away from institutional homophobia. Great!

the younger generation will replace those with old bigoted feelings around gender stereotypes
Right, this has definitely happened. I’m assuming you’re referring to largely US imported ideas about gender ideology? That ideology is entirely predicated on regressive stereotypes. You know; the resource with GI Joe and Barbie. The lie that if you don’t conform to regressive stereotypes of feminine behaviour, you’re actually male (and need to have a double mastectomy). It’s clearly harmful both to individuals and to society.

But you haven’t said what happens next? We need a subsequent generation to see the regressive, conservative reality of gender ideology for what it is, and stand up for everyone’s right to dress how they like, without gaslighting young people into self-harm through hormones and surgery? So teenagers don’t render themselves infertile and put themselves on a lifelong medical pathway?

I think I’ve misjudged you based on your repeated posts up to now. Apparently we seem to agree after all.

Stonewall were at the forefront of fighting for gay rights, now they are at the forefront of the " trans movement " as you call it.

Stonewall are divisive, they don't really care about trans rights they just need a revenue stream. After winning the gay fight they found themselves largely redundant and so jumped on the trans bandwagon as a way to secure income

As long as we all keep fighting Stonewall will keep stirring the pot.

[quote Imasoulman]@PandorasMailbox

Being trans isn't a choice.

There are also huge numbers of trans people who would stand shoulder to shoulder with you to fight for single sex spaces etc but a lot of feminists seem to view all trans people as an enemy.
Its sad and its a vicious circle[/quote]

These trans people who would fight for single sex spaces need to start speaking the fuck up.

There are a few who come to talk on The Mess We're In podcast and I commend them. There aren't enough of them around.

I hope we look back once gay and lesbians are accepted again for being same sex attracted and that the idea that gender could ever be conflated with sex will be laughed about in a 'how were we so crazy to believe that - it must have been covid brain' kind of thing. Trans people will be accepted for being trans gendered and we can all live happily ever after...

@PandorasMailbox

Being trans isn't a choice.

There are also huge numbers of trans people who would stand shoulder to shoulder with you to fight for single sex spaces etc but a lot of feminists seem to view all trans people as an enemy.
Its sad and its a vicious circle

The "Comfort Women" keep coming into my mind... These were (for those who are not familiar with the phrase!!) the unfortunate women forced into sexual slavery by the Japanese army in WW2. These poor women were forced to become slave-like prostitutes. The soldiers were even given tickets, for their turn. All completely ghastly.

So - I can now see US as the Comfort women. Being forced to accept men in all areas of our lives, to validate THEIR feelingses.

I see this as the future, unless we get more men on our side (as we wimmin are just getting ignored).

Step up men, Glinner can't take on the world by himself.

A teacher friend works in a really deprived school and her kids are all gender critical and have no time for it.

Most teenage girls I speak to think it's kind of crazy but they don't speak up because of the backlash on them so they just keep quiet.

Yes, I think most just quietly roll their eyes.

That historical hatred and bigotry against a minority was replaced by understanding and equality. And the younger generation will replace those with old bigoted feelings around gender stereotypes, and hopefully the patriarchy and glass ceilings will finally be smashed as well.

Not when women of all ages are held in as much contempt by young "progressives" as much as older misogynists, they won't be.

Yes. Anyone who thinks the trans movement is the same as the gay rights movement, hasn't actually thought properly about it. If they engaged with the reality for a nanosecond they would realise they are not comparable.

Saying things like "people want to ban trans people from playing sports" and using phrases like "trans healthcare" obfuscate the truth. Completely disingenuous.

[quote CuriousPanda]**@NonnyMouse1337
Given the existence of detransitioners, that's highly unlikely.
"Given the existence of ex-gays, mainstream acceptance of homosexuality seems unlikely"
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex-gay_movement

@dyslek
What is 'trans acceptance' Blue? what rights do trans people not have?
The ability to live as equals with their cis counterparts, which is the very thing you oppose. This is like asking "what rights don't gay people have?" back when gay people could only form civil unions.[/quote]
Being gay isn't a choice. There's a big difference between someone's sexuality and them being trans.

Trans people in the UK already live as equals. However, there's nothing equal about riding roughshod over the rights of women and medicalising children.

You have all the rights you need under the law.

I'll ask the same question that several PPs have already asked. Which actual rights do you not already have?

I imagine it will be learning from history and what happened with lesbian and gay people during the 80s.

That historical hatred and bigotry against a minority was replaced by understanding and equality. And the younger generation will replace those with old bigoted feelings around gender stereotypes, and hopefully the patriarchy and glass ceilings will finally be smashed as well.

The future looks bright.

Yes, if by working through the current mess we get to the progressive understanding that thrse concepts of "cis", "trans" and "non-binary" are nothing more than the same old gender stereotypes with new marketing, and we realise that real inclusion and acceptance comes not from moving between gender boxes but from throwing the boxes away, that will be true progress.

But sex is still relevant and will remain so as long as female people suffer social, political and economic lack of power relative to males. Ditching these stereotypical gender constructions will help that but not solve it.

Most teenage girls I speak to think it's kind of crazy but they don't speak up because of the backlash on them so they just keep quiet.

Then there is the case of the law student who hopefully now has a good law career ahead of her who got investigated for saying women have vaginas.

Basically it's not just old people who don't believe in gender ideology - the vast majority of people young and old don't believe that trans women are actually women.

Hopefully here in the UK the voice of reason will win out - it will be interesting to see what happens in the States...

I imagine it will be learning from history and what happened with lesbian and gay people during the 80s.

But - the Transgenderist movement wants to dismantle Gay Rights.

Just to be quite clear.

Lesbian and gay people did not want to remove rights from other people. They just want(ed) to be treated equally.

Transgender people have rights. They want additional rights and in doing so are removing sex based rights from women.

It is nothing like the fight for gay and lesbian rights and it is truly offensive to make that comparison.

The world is waking up, finally. The future does indeed look bright.