Question re relationships with trans people

Oh God. Not equating being trans to being black again. Offensive and a scraping the barrel argument. It's always the same.

To those on the thread who hadnt heard this pov then there you go. Very clear.

For those same people, interested for you to consider what that has meant for lesbian things. Bars, dating apps, etc etc.

Also anyone want to answer my gay clubs question earlier?

Including curious panda- interested in your view. Can repost my question here to save you scrolling if you like?

'The important part is to not explicitly exclude any and all trans people.'

Gay men/ lesbians. Should not explicitly exclude opposite sex trans people.

That's akin to racism.

Same way no one will force you to personally date a black person, but you still shouldn't put "no blacks" on your dating profile.

The thing I find fascinating is the way the 'no such thing as society' and focus on the individual ( right wing ideas) have become the norm for so many issues.

With political movements etc it used to be about groups.

Now for many it's a view around individuals.

Stuff like

Male violence is a massive issue globally

• What? My DH is lovely. You're being insulting/ sexist/ mean

In many countries there is a terrible history of atrocities committed against black people / indigenous people / ... which were committed by X country

• I'm not racist! It was years ago. Why are you holding me responsible? That's just really unfair and wrong

In this conversation

There are serious concerns about dodgy men exploitating self ID
-My trans friend is lovely! Wouldn't hurt a fly. Why are you demonising her?

Etc etc.

It's not personal.

It's come from the fact, previously accepted and still accepted by loads of charities etc. That as a group, male people present a risk to female people. (And male people as well).

Anyone who insists that this is not true is someone who is a. Dishonest and b. Has no care for women and girls.

But again this isn't personal.

Women and transwomen in general got on with things before all this. Women overlooked the small number of transwomen they came across in bogs, changing rooms with cubicles etc.

IME it was not that often and they were very much head down please don't say anything. And most of the time women didn't. We were 'kind'.

This you can be male with obvious masculine body grooming attire and no physical changes. And use the female facilities if you 'feel more comfortable' in. And that's your right and anyone in there who even says anything is a hateful person who wants trans people dead...

It's silly. Everyone knows it's silly.

And yet it's in place pretty much.. everywhere. Including places where we are really very vulnerable indeed.

And in the end who actually are the group to be really awful/ violent. That would be bog standard men. And as ever. What they do is someone else's fault. Just. Because.

I mean yes those who pass won't be noticed!

Given the number of transwomen I have seen out and about that would mean an awful lot of transwomen who do around the place. And I just don't see how many can be lucky enough to naturally have a set of physical characteristics that are not unusual in women. One or two maybe but the whole lot?

Lots of trans women look like stereotypical women and if they have fully transitioned they will have breasts and vagina so surely it makes sense for these people to go to a women’s refuge?

Extremely rarely in my experience (passing), and only a tiny, tiny percentage have surgery, especially bottom surgery (not that I blame them, the problems and failure rates are horrific, even worse for phalloplasty).

'It's insulting to suggest that 99% of transwomen look like men.
The ones who pass never get noticed so it's pure ignorance.'

Again you're taking this personally.

Self id with no change to appearance is where we're at.
Very very very few want or can afford to have the many surgeries etc. I mean the list is huge (not everyone would want all but)...

Genital surgery
Electrolysis beard and possibly back and other areas
Voice training (or time to really practice)
Learning socialised things like how most women sit, how you struggle out of a car with a short skirt and heels
How to react in the way most women and girls act to loads of challenging situations at work, out and about etc. How most women react to men trying to put them in their place and how to manage it, if you wish, in a way that doesn't overly impact your reputation etc
Surgery Adams apple/ face/ boobs
What clothes and makeup to wear to blend in for your age appearance and the various unwritten rules for so much stuff

I mean you've done all this you know it!

And even then things like height, body shape/ how you carry yourself/ distribution of fat, hands, feet etc etc unless you're lucky enough to be very slight etc will be subconsciously noticed

And that's before you get onto the fact that no changes are required at all it's on self ID.

There are no stats of course and it would be really horrible to try and get them! And it's all subjective anyway. Based on posts on here as well it seems women notice the whole person rather than superficial outward appearance.

In the end the new gender crowd have really fucked things up for transsexuals and plenty are angry. Trus*um they are called by the more mainstream trans activists. Nice.

ImASoulMan

Stonewall is THE go to charity for LGBT+ things though- what they say carries a LOT of weight.

Also none of this is about individuals.

I'm sure you know how wide the umbrella is now and that self ID is pretty much expected. So much operates on this basis now- non trivial stuff like the police.

I am perfectly happy for people to present how they wish and am absolutely in favour of stamping out bullying violence abuse. This includes the stuff that GNC people get. It's important to fight abuse.

I know you know that the issue is with the insistence that any and all previously female only things be changed to gender and self ID. And the (to most people in the general public esp women) really obvious opportunity this gives to weirdy pervy men of which there are a huge number.

Being told that you're essentially the same as the most violent murderous awful people and groups for raising these concerns and saying... Hold on a minute. Has led to this polarisation. And at risk of sounding like a kid. We didn't start it!

terfisaslur.com/

That's a fair point.

But it depends on your definition of trans of course and how big you belive the trans umbrella is.

It's insulting to suggest that 99% of transwomen look like men.
The ones who pass never get noticed so it's pure ignorance.

As usual Stonewall are talking cobblers!

If you are a gay man you like men not women it's pretty simple.

I present in a feminine way but am still attracted to women, that doesn't make me a lesbian !

Stonewall are nuts !

ImASoulMan

When gender expression is not linked to gender ID,

Your idea that trans men/ women should present as their internal gender is way out of date.

Stonewall states clearly that homosexuality means being attracted to someone who presents in a feminine/ masculine way.

Not that it's same sex attraction.

Examples were asked for I assume stonewall is an ok source?

What do posters make of their approach?

Your ignorance is amazing !

I think this thread is getting bogged down!

Here's an example.

Stonewall definitions.

'Homosexual
This might be considered a more medical term used to describe someone who has a romantic and/or sexual orientation towards someone of the same gender. The term ‘gay’ is now more generally used.'

'Gender
Often expressed in terms of masculinity and femininity, gender is largely culturally determined and is assumed from the sex assigned at birth.'

But it does strike me as odd that someone with an existing attraction to a person would choose not to act on that attraction just because they found out the object of their affection was trans.

It doesn't strike me as even slightly odd. As you get to know someone, absolutely anything about them could be something that puts you off of acting on that attraction. The fact that they think they're the sex they're not is a rather big thing.

ImASoulMan thanks for the post.

The weirdest thing about all this is that women dismissed as 'te**s', homophobes, right wing etc

Are (or were before this conversation became more widely known) the sort of women who under different circs would have been a group who advocated for and supported trans people.

Old school feminists
Dyed in the wool lefties
Lesbians
Women who were activists around that for years
Socialists who were anti racism, concerned about poverty. Disability rights activists. global oppression of various groups.

All that sort of thing. The 'type' of woman much derided in the press and society.

Oh, and very often GNC in look and/ or personality.

I mean I could go on!

As a group are I'd imagine more likely to try to do something for a person they saw in trouble. Not less.

How has this idea that women of that type suddenly have become those that want others harmed?

I don't understand it.

Agreed that dyslek made sense. And get the point the OP was making, hence my comment about most people being pretty clear about who they want to have sex with and most people knowing what sex other bodies are.

OP is making a good point about the material reality of sex ...

I don’t think anyone has said that people should date to make a political point or that you shouldn’t support people you dont want to shag

I think dyslek has explained what the OP meant very well a number of times now