Question re relationships with trans people

I just don't share your transphobic definitions of "man" and "woman".

You don't know every lesbian, and you don't know every gay man. And you immediately jump into invalidate and gay man or lesbian who would sleep with a trans person.

You think you get to decide who "qualifies" as a gay man, lesbian, or bisexual based on your criteria. And that's just reductive, that just makes your assertions mean nothing.

Of course you think "no gay man would date trans men" when every gay man who would simply stops being a gay man to you.

It is transphobic to misgender and exclude trans people on the basis of their supposed "sex".

Do you think what you see as transphobia trumps homophobia?

There's two glorious threads on here for the lurkers tonight.

Please no one report any of these posts.

No, it is not homophobic to not share your transphobic definitions, nor was it all about "same-sex attraction", it was all about loving people of the same gender

It is not transphobic to state that homosexual people are same sex attracted. However, it is extremely homophobic to deny their sexuality.

'Trans people fell under the same "sexual deviancy" laws as gay people. The mere act of being trans was illegal, and intimate sexual acts with a trans person would likely be also.'

Gender ID is in your brain though. Gender presentation is different.

How the hell would anyone know who was trans? I mean trans people have been around forever we're advised but you can't tell by looking at someone.

????!!!

You think that eg a male with a female partner who identified as a man inside. And maybe had a more masculine style. You think they would have been prosecuted for homosexuality???!!!

Erm.

Gay people fought for the right to love people of the same gender, not for strictly defined "sex-based attraction" (which is a term that originated in conversion therapy language)

Good grief.

There is no way a gay man and another man who turned out to have a female body would have been arrested for having sex.
Plenty of gay men were of course and thank goodness that law was removed.
I need to sleep now as I've to be up early on a Tuesday (assuming Tuesday is still "the day that comes after Monday" and hasn't now been defined as something else.)

Trans people fell under the same "sexual deviancy" laws as gay people. The mere act of being trans was illegal, and intimate sexual acts with a trans person would likely be also.

Which country are you talking about? And when did this change?

So to be clear.

Gay men fought for the law to be changed in England and Wales so that being gay was not illegal.

Being gay meant same gender attracted.

So they fought to free v opposite sex people from being persecuted for getting together if they had the same internal gender identity.
And for same sex people to be able to love each other but only if they also had the same internal gender.

They did not fight for same sex lovers who had different internal gender IDs.

I think that's it.

Fair enough but laws that were changed had no impact on any other groups. Decriminalising gay sex only affected gay men. Same sex marriage has no impact on opposite sex marriage. Gay men have not demanded that women give up their safe spaces because they are sometimes vulnerable amongst other men. Gay men and lesbians have not demanded that language used to describe others is changed because they are not included in that group etc.etc

Weird how none of the gay men I know want to sleep with transmen.
And none of the lesbians I know would sleep with trans women.
And they were fighting for their rights back in the not so distant past. That was the right to same SEX relationships.

Some of the bisexual people I know would. Some wouldn't.

You play fast and loose with language panda. Most people expect a word to have one definition.
It is fascinating to learn that gay people were fighting for the right to sleep with transmen. (Which would never have been illegal, come to think of it).

it was all about loving people of the same gender.

What do you mean by 'same gender'?

Did you read my post? Because the smiley face is bang out of order.

If you didn't please can you and then I'd be interested to hear what you make of it.

But lots of people ARE willing to date/marry trans people so I don’t understand your point?

Statistically, no. 9% of lesbians and around 2% of straight men, according to one recent pro trans study.

Sorry my post was long!

Loads of other posts while I was writing it.

Still curious I'd be interested in a response.

"We never demanded that society change its laws, its activities, its language to accommodate us."

Is a thing LGB Alliance said. Which is obviously ignorant ahistorical bullshit.

As for what language gay liberation movement sought to change...

For a long time marriage was defined as a union between man and woman. And we successfully phased out that bigoted definition.

'Being explicitly excluded, to trans people, is just as insulting and denigrating, and will react to that accordingly by decrying disclaimers about "not dating trans people" as transphobic.'

This is about sexual attraction. Sexuality.

Homosexuality has been in some countries and still is. Illegal. Socially so unacceptable that there are large numbers of beatings murders. Gang rape and murder of out lesbians. Some countries have death penalty.

Beyond that in countries which enforce narrow gender roles past the risk of being deemed homosexual, the freedom of especially female children and adults is highly policed. Arranged marriage, child marriage.

I may be making an assumption here but I'd imagine that in general in a forced marriage the girl/ woman. Well in theory her husband has marital rights and in practice i have no doubt that a gay man in this situation will have a shit life but pressure for intercourse a different dynamic. But a lesbian will be in no position to refuse. And frankly in that situation sexuality is by the bye because rape. Women and girls have way less freedom to get away by themselves/ meet other people etc etc. They are property.

For trans people in those countries where I doubt there are explicit laws, presenting or in any way being seen to be too feminine or masculine will be interpreted as homosexuality and same oppression applied.

On that note marital rape was only criminalised in England and Wales in the early 90s.

Your point is that in more liberal countries, asserting your sexuality and at times bluntly saying no is transphobic.

Given the history for lesbians, gay men and bisexual people who in any way gave away the same sex attraction part of their sexuality. In the UK. And still desperate all over the world.

And given that it was legal for a man to rape his wife until the early 90s- so recent. And that all over the world millions of women and girls have no choice about who or when they have sex (rape).

Given that where women have the legal right to say no and rape is illegal, and gay men and lesbians and bisexual people are protected in law, it has been FOUGHT FOR in living memory.

Given all that.

What gives you the idea that it's reasonable to compare exclusive same or opposite sex attraction as like RACISM...???

None of gay activism was based around any of the "Only Sex-Based XX Chromosome Large Gamete Adult Human Female!!" bullshit, that's the part you wrote into "same-sex attraction" after the fact.

Gay activism was all about same sex attraction. That's what being gay is all about and denying that is really homophobic.