Question re relationships with trans people

Gay rights movements in the past and now were always about changing laws/ fighting discrimination around same gender attraction.
Never anything to do with sorry to be blunt. Males who had sex with other males. (The laws etc through history seem to be much more concerned with this than females with females).

@CuriousPanda it must be because I'm an American, then, cause this confusion is not a result of my precious law. I did hope that sharing the English language would suffice.

How do you distinguish then between adult human females and child human females in your English-speaking country? What words do you use? And what words do you use to distinguish between human females and bovine females? Or horse females and human females?

The UK equality act of 2010 says that a woman is a female of any age.
Therefore it is a sex term. As female is a sex term, woman must be also.

I'd really like to get into the broader thrust of panda's arguments rather than getting into the finer detail.

There have been many arguments and assertions that are very bold and I think it would be informative to get a grasp on those before getting into more detail. I keep losing posts so will see if I can remember the main things.

@CuriousPanda if 'man' and 'woman' refer to gender, not sex, can you give a brief description of the characteristics of someone with a 'man' gender and someone with a 'woman' gender?

What exactly are these feminine "behaviours" or "feelings"? We'd all love to know.

My daughter will not grow up thinking she has to like makeup or certain clothes or certaim hobbies or sports or behave a certain why to fit to weird ideas of female. The only thing that makes her female is her biology, and she'll have to live with all thaz entails physically and in terms of societal discrimination. She doesn't need people like you pushing ridiculous outdated and offensive stereotypes of "femininity" on her on top of that. She will be female no matter how she talks or dresses or speaks or whatever hobbies or jobs she has.

At the same time, a trans person is protected from sex discrimination on the basis of their legal sex. This means that a trans woman who does not hold a GRC and is therefore legally male would be treated as male for the purposes of the sex discrimination provisions, and a trans woman with a GRC would be treated as female. The sex discrimination exceptions in the Equality Act therefore apply differently to a trans person with a GRC or without a GRC.

Can I have some examples of the 'indigenous cultures' where having a penis (or a vulva) does not have any set of cultural norms around their sex role?

Sounds really interesting TBH.

It wasn't convenient, nobody is denying you can identify as a woman.

But you can also actually BE ONE BY SEX

'And even that's not universal, since in plenty indigenous cultures, having a penis didn't necessarily mean being a "man" at all.'

You seem to be very wed to gendered expectations.

I get that you're using the words man woman boy girl to mean sex role. I mean that's not what they've meant until recently but going with that.

You claim that some 'indigenous cultures' do not think having a penis means being a 'man'.

Given your definition of man is sex role enforced on males. Then if in a society the sex role for male is not how you see that sex role. It makes no odds. In that society the sex role for males (men) is the norm for that society. They are men. Just you understand sex roles to mean different things to what they do.

As an aside. Indigenous means originally from that land/ area. I don't know what you have in your head when you say 'indigenous' but it includes an awful lot of people.

EG in Europe

'Ethnic Europeans are indigenous to the region, having lived there for millennia. However, the UN recognizes very few indigenous populations of Europe, confined to the far north and far east of the continent.

Notable indigenous minority populations in Europe that are recognized by the UN include the Finno-Ugric Nenets, Samoyed, and Komi peoples of northern Russia; Circassians of southern Russia and the North Caucasus; Crimean Tatars of Crimea in Ukraine; Sámi peoples of northern Norway, Sweden, and Finland and northwestern Russia (in an area also referred to as Sápmi); Basques of Basque Country, Spain and southern France; and the Sorbian people of Germany and Poland.[85]'

So, woman/ man is an objective description of biological sex. Gender is a set of harmful and offensive stereotypes that have been used to repress women for hundreds of years and we're meant to now accept just because they give some people a warm fuzzy feeling.

Nope.

1. Definitions and differences

The UK government defines sex as:
• referring to the biological aspects of an individual as determined by their anatomy, which is produced by their chromosomes, hormones and their interactions
• generally male or female
• something that is assigned at birth

The UK government defines gender as:
• a social construction relating to behaviours and attributes based on labels of masculinity and femininity; gender identity is a personal, internal perception of oneself and so the gender category someone identifies with may not match the sex they were assigned at birth
• where an individual may see themselves as a man, a woman, as having no gender, or as having a non-binary gender – where people identify as somewhere on a spectrum between man and woman

Ffs

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/our-work/news/our-statement-sex-and-gender-reassignment-legal-protections-and-language

A woman is an adult human female by sex

It is also a gender identity someone CAN choose

Separate under the equality act.

Ugh. My phone cracked and I'm hitting the send button too soon.
My last post in bold is a quote from CuriousPanda

The UK government defines gender as:
• a social construction relating to behaviours and attributes based on labels of masculinity and femininity; gender identity is a personal, internal perception of oneself and so the gender category someone identifies with may not match the sex they were assigned at birth
• where an individual may see themselves as a man, a woman, as having no gender, or as having a non-binary gender – where people identify as somewhere on a spectrum between man and woman

www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/articles/whatisthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21#definitions-and-differences

I don't want to repeat myself, lol. The very label of "woman" is gender

I don't want to repeat myself, lol. The very label of "woman" is gender

I know you all are sick of this, but just one more time

@CuriousPanda will you please share your definition of gender. And then please share your definition of woman. Because they appear quite different than mine.

Mine:

Woman: grown up human female
Gender: the stereotypical behavior, cultural and psychological traits associated with the sexes.

^2. Definitions and differences
The UK government defines sex as:
• referring to the biological aspects of an individual as determined by their anatomy, which is produced by their chromosomes, hormones and their interactions
• generally male or female
• something that is assigned at birth

The UK government defines gender as:
• a social construction relating to behaviours and attributes based on labels of masculinity and femininity; gender identity is a personal, internal perception of oneself and so the gender category someone identifies with may not match the sex they were assigned at birth
• where an individual may see themselves as a man, a woman, as having no gender, or as having a non-binary gender – where people identify as somewhere on a spectrum between man and woman^

@CuriousPanda nice word salad but none of us are hungry at this time of night. And it's been a cold day so we'd need something more substantial and enticing to make us hungry I'm afraid.

How about you explain to us what gender is?

Fucking hell

'All labels are made-up.'

We're getting into philosophy 'if a tree falls in the woods' stuff here surely.

Indeed. I mean all words are "made up".

It's all a bit Schrodinger's penis for my liking.

i.imgur.com/gXysdQQ.png