Question re relationships with trans people

It means nothing. Show a lesbian a picture of a passing trans woman and a passing trans man, and she's 99% going to pick the trans woman.

Er, hello, pheromones?

Are you a virgin?

This is why I tell my kids not to rely on tinder. I've seen plenty of picture of attractive butch lesbians that I find attractive, but I've never once wanted to have sex with one I met in RL because, unfortunately, inconveniently really, I am heterosexual. I can no more change that than change the fact I'm female.

@user888
Indeed. No heterosexual man will be sexually interested in a transwoman. Yet the 'cotton ceiling' never seems to reference Y-fronts. Because the drivers of gender ideology are heterosexual men who identify as women thereby identify as lesbians, and want to have sex with lesbians. Not fellow transwomen 'lesbians' of course...

@CuriousPanda

Where is the ‘social construction’ of ‘gender identity’ defined? What does it mean to identify as a woman? And, as the law puts it, ‘live as a woman’?

What is the objective correlative? How does gender identity correlate to biological sex? If someone with a penis, prostate etc (without a womb, uterus, vagina etc) has an internal perception of himself as a ‘woman’, what does it mean?

What is the fundamental difference between a man who supposedly 'connects with his feminine side' say by expressing his emotions or taking an interest in people, and a transwoman?

And why is it that all the debates (insofar as ‘debate’ is appropriate when ‘no debate’ is a mantra on one side) around gender identification concern women?

I'm male, attracted to this corner of mumsnet by the calibre of discussion and yes, the all-too-frequent car crashes that happen whenever someone with an unsupportable ideology stops in to pit their wits against the witches. As Ereshkigalangcleg put it, "In my experience the type of people who turn up here to school the mummies have no self awareness whatsoever. Unconvincing bluster is all they have."

I'm also American, and in the times in which we live, grateful not to be resident in my mother country, with its captured mainstream media and legions of zombies folks who just want to be 'nice'.

Being heterosexual, I have no interest in coupling with a man with a female penis, and a simulacrum of a vagina also holds no attraction. To be crude, I suppose an unaltered trans man might fit the bill, were it not for the unpalatable delusions between their ears. To call people like me transphobic or shallow because we sexually reject trans people wholesale may comfort our curiously gender captured panda in some strange way, but it's water off a duck's back. Expecting lesbians to accept penis is of course unspeakably rapey.

There's two glorious threads on here for the lurkers tonight.

As morning glory, they are unpalatable fare indeed. But I'm captured in my own way.

And using the word 'indigenous' outside of a specific context is dodgy. Used by people of european heritage, it carries the same colonial connotations as 'native' because it centres the peoples who 'came after' them from elsewhere.

It means nothing. Show a lesbian a picture of a passing trans woman and a passing trans man, and she's 99% going to pick the trans woman.

But I digress. I wanted to reply to this gem after I went to bed. Show a lesbian a picture of a biological male who genuinely looks like a woman and she's going to pick that one over a picture of a female who looks superficially like a man. That's not really that surprising, is it? That she would pick an apparent woman?

So i guess it's too bad for the overwhelming majority of trans people who don't pass as the opposite sex, then? Isn't that in itself a bit transphobic? And the fact that only a tiny number of lesbians were prepared to date an MTF trans person in the study, despite no doubt proclaiming on social media how much they were "with the T" is telling. They know they are only attracted to women, and that MTF trans people don't do it for them.

No point arguing with you, you don't know enough to hold your own.

You're right. All this person has is bluster, arrogance and insults. It reminds me of Twitter.

Nothing about the UK definition of sex mentions "man" or "woman" once.

This is not true. I mean, did you think we just didn't know or weren't going to check? EyesOpening has kindly posted the legislation wording for you.

Not sure how much you'll get out of this, but here's what I'd consider an interesting read:

https://culturallyboundgender.wordpress.com/2013/03/09/toward-an-end-to-appropriation-of-indigenous-two-spirit-people-in-trans-politics-the-relationship-between-third-gender-roles-and-patriarchy/

Or if you want more of a scolding from people who think similarly to you in many other ways:

https://ourliveswisconsin.com/article/dear-queer-white-people-cultural-appropriation/

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/212?view=plain

Panda has done an impressive gish gallop of poor arguments across several threads last night.

I think Curious Panda may have left an important bit out of bold before, when claiming what the law states as man/woman
where an individual may see themselves as a man, a woman, as having no gender, or as having a non-binary gender – where people identify as somewhere on a spectrum between man and woman

Also I’m sure I’ve read somewhere, a definition, from the EA2010 (?) or discussion as reported in Hansard that says:
A woman is a female of any age
A man is a male of any age

I’m sure someone will have a link handy

Some people believe the earth is flat.
Some people believe transmen are not human females and transwomen are not human males. They are entitled to believe what they like . However, we are also entitled to think it is a load of nonsense. Unfortunately it is a load of nonsense which denies homosexuals their freedom to love others of their sex and denies women the right to name themselves and demand as a group the equality and right to safety denied them by the patriarchy.

No, woman is a gender identity, as defined by UK law

It's no such thing. It is covered under the protected characteristic of sex not gender reassignment.

Honestly, there's nothing inherently wrong with raising your kid as cis (or as you would call it, use the "sexed" labels) until the kid mentions anything otherwise.

LOL, yes only on Mumsnet do people believe in biological sex.

The words for gender are feminine and masculine. The words for sex are male and female. The words man and woman (well, let’s be honest, just woman really) are the contested countries in a war over linguistics and semantics. I recognise this, whilst also recognising that the genderist definition of “woman” is regressive and virtually meaningless. To not even recognise there is a conflict going on over these words is gaslighting of the highest order.

And to add

'Honestly, there's nothing inherently wrong with raising your kid as cis'

Where that means being married off as a child, raped, and suffering massive physical damage due to being a child yourself.

Then I'd say there's a huge amount wrong with it.

With every post you manage to really put your foot in it with another historically oppressed group.

So far

The ongoing fight for gay rights

The statement that women like me are somehow causing things like men gang raping and murdering lesbians thousands of miles away

The to me really shitty suggestion that women who are concerned about the impact of self ID, like me, are really into the oppressive sex roles imposed by society. Which around the world include things like FGM, 'honour' murders, raped women being imprisoned for 'adultery' etc etc

And that some 'indigenous cultures' have zero sex roles for male/ female people.

May have missed some.

'Honestly, there's nothing inherently wrong with raising your kid as cis'

I'm a feminist.

I have strongly opposed enforcement of sex role on anyone, all my life.

As a child, really young. I noticed the way really odd things were pressed on me. I was supposed to be pleased when called pretty. I was not supposed to enjoy science. Etc etc.

My deep discomfort with the sex role so constantly forced on me confused me. I couldn't understand it. Why would i be pleased at being called pretty? I look how I look so what. Why aren't you asking what I like and then coming and looking at my space drawings?

That's why I'm a feminist. I have always loathed the narrow sex roles everyone is forced into.

'Not sure how much you'll get out of this, but here's what I'd consider an interesting read:
www.e-ir.info/2019/08/20/indigenous-sexualities-resisting-conquest-and-translation/'

I read the (long!) summary.

It doesn't say anything to support your claim that there were no sex roles.

The sex roles and acceptable sexualities were alien to European colonists.

If you take it to mean that they had no concept of 'man' or 'woman' from a social point of view then you are demonstrating that same thought process.

That because the social roles are incomprehensible to you, include aspects that seem fixed to the 'wrong' gender role, they didn't exist at all.

Really interesting I will read on.

Sexual attraction in humans is based on external appearance. it was confirmed this meant sexed bodies. As sexed bodies can be altered to be indistinguishable from the body of the opposite sex, the concept of attraction to one or the other, or both sexes, is rendered void.

Note.
Very few people in the world have access to or can afford those surgeries etc.
Even the best surgery means a superficial / cosmetic likeness. male and female sex organs are complex organs. they cannot be replicated with exactly the same function.

The point is to be flexible, to let kids express themselves, and that includes letting them explore their identity

I don't mind kids being creatives and expressing themselves-in fact, I encourage them to bust through stereotypes associated with their sex, but I also encourage them to use shared language that is clear and concise, and they know there are only 2 sexes.

Sadly, I know too many trans kids who have taken the search for identity to a dangerous place that puts their physical health at risk. I won't let my kids get tattoos, boob jobs, cosmetic surgery or piercings either as any permanent body modification decisions should be made when they are adults.

The term same sex attraction (I think it was?) was never referenced in any way before 2015.

Same sex attraction is a phrase that means something different (in a sinister way) to the terms homosexuality, lesbian, gay man, bisexual.

[quote Delphinium20]@CuriousPanda it must be because I'm an American, then, cause this confusion is not a result of my precious law. I did hope that sharing the English language would suffice.

How do you distinguish then between adult human females and child human females in your English-speaking country? What words do you use? And what words do you use to distinguish between human females and bovine females? Or horse females and human females?[/quote]
Honestly, there's nothing inherently wrong with raising your kid as cis (or as you would call it, use the "sexed" labels) until the kid mentions anything otherwise.

The point is to be flexible, to let kids express themselves, and that includes letting them explore their identity.