Question re relationships with trans people

Beautifully put, as usual @FloralBunting

Grown

You may like this.

It's virtue signalling, a phrase I hate but it's what it is. Its commonplace on social media. It makes them look good in public to fight for a cause thats trending but behind close doors don't really care about what they're 'fighting' for! I'm not saying they're all guilty but a lot of them are.

Ah, we've had an appearance of the lesser spotted 'No one is forcing or coercing you to accept opposite sex partners. We're just going to call you nasty names if you don't' paradox.

People, it's fine to be heterosexual or bisexual. That genuinely isn't a slur. Heck,if you are one of the people who genuinely likes anything down below, then by all means go with Pansexual, I think it's a good descriptor that doesn't take anything from gay men or lesbians, so crack on.

But if you're a female who likes to present in a very masculine way and you fancy men, you're heterosexual, and if you're a male who is fine with both cock and vagina, you're bi. It's not a value judgement, it's just a description of reality.

And I'm a lesbian who was married to a man. Because of conversion therapy. It's not really a progressive idea, but then, you seem not to understand what 'coercion' means, so I imagine you do have trouble with 'progressive' and 'conversion therapy' too.

Just place marking. Thanks to @Ereshkigalangcleg for the link

tbf a gay mans attraction to the person in the pic, if is a female, is going to end where the picture ends.

Indeed. And everyone knows this.

Why is denying that gay men and lesbians are same sex attracted rather than same gender attracted a key thing? Changing the widely accepted words around homosexuality to mean something completely different? And then say yep. This stuff is for us. If you don't agree you're a bigot..?

Because it's "invalidating" if people with a mono sexual orientation reject you because you are the wrong sex, even though you identify as that sex. That is violent and trumps homophobia apparently.

Look at the surprise of the researchers in that paper I quoted that even when people were prepared to date trans people, they did it by sex more than gender, the bizarre transphobes.

A gay man attracted to this person doesn't automatically stop being gay.

Because that person superficially passes in a photo. If the man wants to sleep with both sexes, knowingly, they are bisexual.

PS it's a criminal offence to conceal one's sex to a sex partner when they have sex with you thinking you were the opposite sex.

I'm wholly against gender stereotypes. Most trans people are, as people attempt to force them onto us pre-transition, then attempt to force them onto us while transitioning, then continue to pressure us to conform to them after transitioning.

According to that picture not everyone agrees with you.

tbf a gay mans attraction to the person in the pic, if is a female, is going to end where the picture ends.

A gay man attracted to this person doesn't automatically stop being gay. Attraction is not based on gametes or chromosomes.

Ummmm... no, it's based on sex. Opposite sex attracted is heterosexual. Same sex attracted is homosexual/ lesbian. Attracted to either sex is bisexual. Sexuality has zero relationship to any gender stereotypes, it is about which sex people find attractive. Why are you being so homophobic?

To use s pic of a person to 'prove' that homosexuality is not a thing...

Is a rubbish argument and.. homophobic.

I'm wholly against gender stereotypes. Most trans people are, as people attempt to force them onto us pre-transition, then attempt to force them onto us while transitioning, then continue to pressure us to conform to them after transitioning

And, if you are against gender stereotypes (as I am), then please can you explain what you do think it is that makes someone a man or woman, if you're saying it isn't sex either? What do the words "man" and "woman" signify to you? What do they describe? How do you define them?

Why is denying that gay men and lesbians are same sex attracted rather than same gender attracted a key thing? Changing the widely accepted words around homosexuality to mean something completely different? And then say yep. This stuff is for us. If you don't agree you're a bigot..?

THAT is straight up homophobia.

When it would be much more straightforward and inclusive to set up alternative things for same gender attracted people and no one would have any kind of issue with that?

And the really serious conundrum.

Why not set up things for same gender attracted People?
Rather than redefining the meaning of gay/ lesbian. In order to get entry to things that were set up by and for homosexuals?
And in the process show huge disrespect to those who have and continue to fight for an end to the enormous harm done to homosexual people all over the world?
And where is the the focus and activism from those who redefined gay/ lesbian to mean same gender attracted around the terrible oppression of fellow gay men and lesbians around the world?

Or, do you have a definition of what you mean by gender that you'll share that isn't based on arbitrary stereotypes, so that we can try to understand what you mean?

'Because I've had those conversations seventy million times, they always end in bad faith interpretations, and they always start with 'explain what a man is????' 'what is a man???' 'how are you a man if you don't do xyz male stereotype tell me sweetie'.'

Really?

Gay men and lesbians are kind of well known for not confirming to sex stereotypes!

I'm not sure of your point.

Are you done yet?

Gay men and lesbians are homosexual. They are sexually attracted to those the same sex.

It has nothing to do with gender.

And the suggestion that not including opposite sex people as potential partners if you are homosexual is... They are doing being gay/ lesbian wrong?

There are loads of ways to meet potential partners.

There is no need to enter any gay/ lesbian things. Dating sites, bars, clubs, websites.

The level of entitlement is staggering.

Ignoring that those who are opposite sex but with same sex gender identities are not targeted by those laws (although GNC people will be at risk of course).

Feeling entitled to admission to things set up by and for same sex attracted people to feel safe and free. Because it's about how you feel inside not about sexed bodies.

To redefine gay and lesbian as same gender attracted. And not same sex attracted.

Is disrespectful to all those who fought to change laws about homosexuality.

Is ignoring the fact that homosexuality is still illegal in plenty of countries. Imprisonment, even death penalty.

You'd think trans people would be onboard with abolishing the whole idea of gender stereotypes, not trying to reinforce them. I find it baffling.

I'm wholly against gender stereotypes. Most trans people are, as people attempt to force them onto us pre-transition, then attempt to force them onto us while transitioning, then continue to pressure us to conform to them after transitioning.

@Barheim I don't think most people here are remotely interested in stereotypes. That's the issue. We don't want them pushed on ourselves or our daughters or sons as the "definition" of being a man or woman. My daughter wants to be a doctor or an architect. She loves football. And climbing trees. She wants to be a doctor. Most of her friends are boys and she loves watching sports and playing with cars. She's still a girl (a girl much like I was!) and she'll grow up to be a woman, no matter what her interests or mannerisms or clothes. Because she is female. It's inescapable and will cause her pain and problems to be female at times, as it does for all of us born female, but that is what she is and I have a feeling she'll be fine. What would NOT be fine is someone trying to tell her that because of her interests she is a man.

My son is the most kind, sensitive boy. Lots of his friends are girls. Several want to marry him already He loves sports too and trains etc but also loves drawing and crafts and says my jewellery is beautiful and doesn't care whether his toys are pink or not, likes to wear the fairy dress up outfit from the costume box sometimes and firefighter or astronaut ones other times. None of these things are remotely connected to the fact that he is a boy, and whether he likes it or not he will grow up to be a man, because he is male.

People can dress however they like, "present" however they like, speak how they like, do whatever jobs they like, have whatever interests they like. None of this has anything to do with being a man or a woman. Surely we should be getting rid of damaging stereotypes and telling all children that they can do whatever they like to do. I find this pushing of "gender" roles very damaging for boys and girls and that is why I asked the question. You'd think trans people would be onboard with abolishing the whole idea of gender stereotypes, not trying to reinforce them. I find it baffling.

Surely it's a type of appropriation.

Taking a label of an oppressed group and applying it to suit yourself. Sort of like the word "woman".

PIV sex is heterosexual as a sexual orientation if conducted between a male by sex and a female by sex.

Of course a person can have sex with either, or indeed neither sex too.

Sexual orientation is all about SEX, not a societal construct in someone's head as to what they think they might be.