Non Binary passport appeal on Mon

Reality is always there. You can’t stop other people seeing it

well yes. even if the world goes mad and this happens, 'non binary' individuals will still be male or female

the whole thing is just so fucking pointless

Who actually goes about thinking ‘hmmmm my sex is female and I identify as female’?

If your identity is neither male or female, which is, I believe what Elan Kane is claiming, great - knock yourself out. But a passport has Sex on not Gender and is a factual document.

If we allow someone to put their identity on it instead of factual information, why shouldn’t I be able to choose what age my passport shows? I’d also like a more exotic place of birth.

Reality is always there. You can’t stop other people seeing it.

I'm late fifties.
I'm trying really hard to stay on top of all of these issues but I'm going to admit that I'm starting to get flummoxed after reading threads like this.

I just don't know anymore.

A lot of people are uncomfortable when they can't accurately sex others, it's such an instinctive immediate judgement made about anyone you don't know, in women especially for safety reasons. I'm much better at sexing people at a glance than my DH is.

We once attended a cooking demonstration with two other couples where the chef was Thai, and we couldn't decide whether chef was he or she. I didn't matter a scrap in that scenario, the cooking lesson was great, but all six people wanted to know and spent too long trying to decide on the sex of the chef. We were all uncomfortable because we didn't know and couldn't tell. This has nothing to do with anything trans- or non-binary related, just a demonstration that humans like to know what's what, even when it doesn't matter to safety, privacy or dignity.

OhHolyJesus point, when followed more, shows it's not just an individual's choice, but can have far reaching impact on children and family connections. It will have a push on birth certificates as well. I think a child deserves to know their biological parents, which sex belongs to which parent. Who is mother and father.

Well I guess there wouldn’t be travelling to Dubai...

Let's say this happens, as it has in other countries, what do you about passports for children.

Say a newborn is born on holiday and needs a passport before travelling, or you child is 8 and you're going abroad for the first time, what do you put on the passport application? would a parent be able to put an X on behalf of the child because the parent is into all this and doesn't 'assign gender' to their child.

For example this family

Or this couple, going on a family holiday.

I was wondering what law they think gives them the human right to put made up bollocks on their passport - Article 8 and 14 of the European Convention on Human Rights, apparently. Right to privacy and family life, and freedom from discrimination.

I hope it’s as much of a ridiculous overreach as it sounds. In the hypothetical case of a perfectly passing “binary” trans person, okay, I can see arguments. I still don’t agree with the arguments in that case, but it makes rudimentary sense.

But I think it’s more than silly to argue that putting an X on someone’s passport is going to protect them from discrimination. And I don’t think that the right to privacy includes the right to not have anyone know what sex you are, especially when it’s bloody obvious anyway.

(I wouldn’t have a problem with creating a third legal sex if X people were legally lumped in with men, but we all know they wouldn’t be.)

This person and the Moon person are both just cool girls really aren't they? Just the ultimate 'not like the other girls'.

Elan-Cane has been doing this for 30 years. What a bloody waste of a life.

Please tell me this is a dream and I will wake up soon and things will be normal again :/

But it's an official document required for travel. That matches your birth certificate for official purposes.

Your passport isn't just to travel, it's a document that allows other countries to correctly identify you in worse case scenarios also.

So if said non binary person was sadly murdered the local police would need to be able to identify them. Nobody is recorded on a death or birth certificate as X.

I mean they could hardly contact the British Embassy and say we've got a dead body, sex X. Nobody cares what you identified as once you are dead 🤦🏻‍♀️ they can't ask you your gender preference. So biological sex is what they go off.

That was a serious proposal made about workplace security passes recently, iirc.

Not just a proposal...

"A Scotland Yard police officer has become Britain's first gender-fluid cop and is carrying two ID cards, in the name of Abi and Callum"
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4533014/Scotland-Yard-officer-Britain-s-gender-fluid-cop.html

Tell you what. We just have sex and have no reference to gender (or have Gender: X for everyone). Problem solved.

This is why we need to entirely separate sex as a physical descriptor of the body from gender as a social identity. Then the genderists can get on with fine tuning the one million flavours of gender identity until it fully actualises the breadth of human personality, and the rest of us can get on with dealing with the practicalities of sexed bodies in a structurally patriarchal society.

One wonders might happen in the course of long-haul journeys.

Do gender fluid people get as many passport as they need to ensure thier validity at all times?

None binary = made up

So you have an X. Who pats you down? They see a bulge in the crotch of your trousers - what’s that then? You have two bulges on your chest - boobs or contraband? Again - who pats you down?

Hi. I used to be here, left and have now returned (new name). In the interim, I have been reading and I hope keeping up with it all.

Although we increasingly use passports as ID (I'm in the UK where we don't have ID documents in the same way other countries do) their basic purpose is surely as a travel document. I've travelled a fair bit & out of Europe too - I'm sure immigration officials in many countries would be totally perplexed by an 'X' in the sex box of a passport. I can imagine some wouldn't treat the bearer of such a document in a particularly kind and sympathetic manner. I can't help feeling a victory for the NBs in this would be a bit of an own-goal.