Milli Hill: I will not be silenced

Yeah that's cool. Buy what do you say to the non binary person who has been abused in childbirth? Sorry we won't help you until you admit you're a woman?

“And theyre entitled to work with people who they feel will support their mission and the way they choose to work and not put off traumatized transmen and non binary people.”

Yes and we’re entitled to criticise them and the gender identity movement they promote which many of us believe to be directly harmful to women and children.

Riiight. A charity which is part of an orchestrated pile on towards a woman for stating her concerns about de-centring women in in obstetric care. A woman with a credible history of supporting women in pregnancy and childbirth. Because only those with a female reproductive system face obstetric violence, and obscuring that will hurt all women, including the women who are comfortable enough with their female reproductive system to use it, but not to use the language that accurately describes it.

And gosh, they use the word women as well as obscuring that reality. Well done them. They also bully other women whom I can only assume they perceive as rivals in the field. I'm not battling them. I'm standing with a woman who has been treated shamefully. You stand with the bullies if you want. I know how vital woman-centred obstetric care is, and how hard it has been to shift the system towards it, and I don't support a charity that seeks to undermine that, however naively unintentional they may be.

This. I'm not engaging with the disingenuousness here.

I have read the thread.

As a human rights charity, Birthrights believes that taking an inclusive approach which respects pregnant non-binary and trans people does not diminish women’s rights. We want everyone to feel welcome and safe in the birth movement and will continue to speak about both women and birthing people in our work.

Sounds fair to me.

What exactly have they done?

Have you actually listened to a word that's been said here? Please read the thread.

And read what Milli has tweeted:

twitter.com/millihill/status/1414925624729391105?s=20

She isn't complaining about Birthrights using "women and birthing people". They jumped on a bandwagon, and made false statements about her, saying she didn't think trans people could ever suffer obstetric violence. She didn't say that when she said obstetric violence is violence against women, because she doesn't share the beliefs that genderists do that "men" can give birth, and it's a nasty construction to make.

A lot of charities and organisations do vital work. That isn't a free pass to do anything they like without censure.

What exactly have they done? Said they don't want to work with milli any more. So?That's their prerogative.

Women don't "identify as women". We are women. No "identifying" needed. We're tiptoeing around the ideology here, but males cannot give birth, and no one is neither male nor female. Only women can give birth. Woman is simply the term for an adult human female. Nothing more and nothing less.

I've seen and heard all these arguments before. I've been here a long time under various names. You feel that way, not everyone does. You've just adequately proven that you don't centre women who don't identify as such. Their feelings are less important than yours.

A lot of charities and organisations do vital work. That isn't a free pass to do anything they like without censure.

Birthrights jumped on a nasty bandwagon, and they got called out for it.

She is entitled to call that out.

And theyre entitled to work with people who they feel will support their mission and the way they choose to work and not put off traumatized transmen and non binary people.

They're not responsible for other people piling on her. They're a charity dedicated to helping women who have suffered trauma in childbirth. Their work is way more important than people objecting to them using the words "birthing people" as well as women. How can they possibly stand up and support milli when transmen and non binary people might come to them for help? Why is she more important than them when they're the ones who have suffered trauma, possibly in part due to their identity? Of course they have to distance themselves from her. Their greater responsibility is to the people they help.

I've been here years. Fully on board with some aspects of the gender debate. I've posted about this issue and been as fully indoctrinated as the rest of you. But you're really missing the bigger picture here. Birthrights work is vital.

Obviously you don't centre women however they identify. You centre the ones that identify as women.

Women don't "identify as women". We are women. No "identifying" needed. We're tiptoeing around the ideology here, but males cannot give birth, and no one is neither male nor female. Only women can give birth. Woman is simply the term for an adult human female. Nothing more and nothing less.

Riiight. A charity which is part of an orchestrated pile on towards a woman for stating her concerns about de-centring women in in obstetric care. A woman with a credible history of supporting women in pregnancy and childbirth. Because only those with a female reproductive system face obstetric violence, and obscuring that will hurt all women, including the women who are comfortable enough with their female reproductive system to use it, but not to use the language that accurately describes it.

And gosh, they use the word women as well as obscuring that reality. Well done them. They also bully other women whom I can only assume they perceive as rivals in the field. I'm not battling them. I'm standing with a woman who has been treated shamefully. You stand with the bullies if you want. I know how vital woman-centred obstetric care is, and how hard it has been to shift the system towards it, and I don't support a charity that seeks to undermine that, however naively unintentional they may be.

Yeah fair enough, if they didn't use the word women. But they do.

But they made a false statement about what Milli said/believes. They should apologise.

Aggressive, sinister and relentless pile on designed to economically punish a woman - dismissed as 'hurt feelings'

Exactly, and yet Birthrights is to be pitied because they also received pushback on Twitter for their dubious behaviour, "and had to close their social media down"?

Mill responded to a post about simply "birthing people", not "women and birthing people". The pile on came from that.

Women's organisations need to stick up for women and girls as a sex class, not avoid the issue or promote misogynistic attitudes.

Obviously you don't centre women however they identify. You centre the ones that identify as women. You seem to think you're some sort of white knight leaping in to "battle". Against a charity that uses both women and birthing people, thereby serving those who do identify as women and those who don't. Yeah fair enough, if they didn't use the word women. But they do.

They've been a lifeline to me and i can't believe that people think that this argument over trans people and this woman's hurt feelings is more important than fighting for the rights of women around childbirth. Fucking appalling that they've had to close their social media down because of the abuse they're getting. They're entitled to choose who they work with. Transmen and non binary people need their help too, just as much as women but if they refer to women only they're automatically excluding very vulnerable people. What's the problem with saying women and birthing people? Is it that you're frustrated because you think they should identify as women if they're pregnant?

According to Milli Birthrights twisted what she said to claim that she "disputed obstetric violence could happen to trans or non binary people". That is a false interpretation of someone saying that obstetric violence is sex based violence against women. She is entitled to call that out.

Aggressive, sinister and relentless pile on designed to economically punish a woman - dismissed as 'hurt feelings'

Facts about the reality of the target of obstetric violence being females - violence.

Whatever. Your Humpty Dumpty cry bully shite doesn't play here without answer, and we centre women, however they identify.

Seeing how they have misrepresented Milli on their website I have absolutely lost respect for Birthrights.

They are betraying women. Have a look at the link posted by tiktok at 18:04 yesterday. The arguments in favour of women centred care and women centred language are clearly detailed there. The trans and non-binary identifying demographic who refer to themselves as “birthing people” will also be protected if we are able to fight for our rights as a sex class and we need accurate, clear sex based language to do that.

Ive been following birthrights for a few years now and I've NEVER seen them post the words birthing person without also saying women. They've been a lifeline to me and i can't believe that people think that this argument over trans people and this woman's hurt feelings is more important than fighting for the rights of women around childbirth. Fucking appalling that they've had to close their social media down because of the abuse they're getting. They're entitled to choose who they work with. Transmen and non binary people need their help too, just as much as women but if they refer to women only they're automatically excluding very vulnerable people. What's the problem with saying women and birthing people? Is it that you're frustrated because you think they should identify as women if they're pregnant? I understand every argument about the language I've been following the gender debate for a long time but this is fucking ridiculous. Leave birthrights alone to get on with what they do - sticking up for everyone who is, has been or will be pregnant who suffers due to ignorance of their rights. They don't need to know you're disappointed in them.

I think the most important thing Milli is saying on Instagram (although she's hidden the comments now as quite rightly needs a break) is that, yes, it's fine to disagree with me, it's fine to have a different viewpoint to me, but the reaction to what I said is spectacularly out of proportion.

That's such a clear message. Her rational viewpoint was met with a vitriolic pile on. The contrast was really stark.

It’s great to see Milli Hill getting support. She has been treated horribly by people who have accused her of racism (wtf?) and bigotry.

This blog post on with-woman.org says something similar about language.

Hell's teeth!