Milli Hill: I will not be silenced

No, we include female people including non binary people and transmen

Clearly not. Or not if it doesn't suit you, anyway

"Including" people doesn't mean subscribing to views you think are misguided, damaging and wrong.

Traumatised people are usually mentally fragile, yes.

You are angry at Milli because she called out Birthrights on the way they treated her. Stop deflecting. No one is going up to traumatised people and upsetting them to prove a point. We are defending women's rights.

Thank you Milli. Biology isn't like religion.

We are specifically talking about birthrights here.

And you are specifically missing the point of why Birthrights, a charity, is being criticised for the way they have behaved.

Men cannot now, nor can they ever be mothers. They cannot have female bodies, and they cannot have our mythology or matriarchal power

Well then it's a jolly good thing that's not what Birthrights are saying then. But don't let that get in the way of you leaping on that bandwagon.

can safely say you have zero empathy for females if they identify as trans or non binary. You've said as much.

No I haven't. I'm going to say it again: stop dishonestly putting words in my mouth, that I've "said as much".

There was a time when use of euphemisms was frowned upon. I thought it was because we were a more enlightened society, promoting plain English, science and education and understanding around bodily functions. Alas it appears that time was just a passing fashion. Now speaking truth and using correct biological terminology is hate speak.

Even if a person doesn't identify as a woman they should still understand the biology of their body. To deny this is harmful. If they can't acknowledge they have breasts then how can they relate to breast cancer screening for example. Chest simply isn't good enough, waving vaguely to somewhere in the thorax. I refuse to facilitate this wilful ignorance.

It is also worth noting that professional bodies such as RCM, RCOG, NICE and the MBRRACE reports consistently refer to Women and Mothers.

www.spectator.com.au/2021/05/on-chestfeeding/

Not all mothers have become mothers through childbirth and not all mothers can breastfeed, but this does not affect the truth that mothers are made through birthing and all humans are birthed searching for a woman’s breast. Any feminist, culture or ideology that separates motherhood from these bodily processes have lost their way.
Men cannot now, nor can they ever be mothers. They cannot have female bodies, and they cannot have our mythology or matriarchal power. Any state power that compels me to say anything else is violating basic scientific knowledge, my right of belief and conscience. Any organisation that pushes another ideology to these truths, is engaging in harmful behaviour toward women.

BIRTHRIGHTS SPECIFICALLY HELPS PEOPLE WHO ARE TRAUMATIZED. Why is it so hard to understand? Traumatised people are usually mentally fragile, yes.

You really don't have any idea what birthrights actually do, do you?

Needapoodle would you also fight for a society based on veganism so as not to perpetuate the trauma vegans suffering witnessing the suffering of animals? What about a society based on Islam to alleviate the trauma of Muslims faced with hyper sexuality, pork and alcohol? What about a society where the spoken word is illegal and we only use BSL to communicate?

Why not? Why gender identity and queer theory?

Also why do you assume that all those who identify as trans and non-binary are so mentally fragile? Isn’t that rather discriminatory of you? I don’t think that it is right to say that an entire demographic is so seriously mentally ill that we must re structure society for them and change our language across the board, especially when they have worked so hard to decouple being trans from the mental illness of gender dysphoria.

Cross posted with kettle. Seems I'm not the only one who sees it.

I can safely say there is zero empathy for these women from most trans activists and their allies, particularly if they raise their concerns about female erasure.

I can safely say you have zero empathy for females if they identify as trans or non binary. You've said as much. So really, what makes you any better than a TRA? You respect and fight for women as long as they're the right sort of woman.

This is really interesting. When accused of transphobia GC feminists are all... No, we include female people including non binary people and transmen

Clearly not. Or not if it doesn't suit you, anyway

Okay but no empathy for the much larger group of traumatised women in healthcare, in refuges, in prisons, in the workplace, in sport and leisure activities or in the place where there should be no question of diluting their importance- maternity care?

We are specifically talking about birthrights here. Start another thread if you want to talk to me about those situations because they are not comparable at all.

Okay but no empathy for the much larger group of traumatised women in healthcare, in refuges, in prisons, in the workplace, in sport and leisure activities

I can safely say there is zero empathy for these women from most trans activists and their allies, particularly if they raise their concerns about female erasure.

And no one is directly being "misgendered" personally, to their faces. They are just not the only people that matter here.

This is not a healthy way to live life, compelling other people's adherence to an implausible belief system.

A society based on gender identity and queer theory instead of sex hurts women in every way and everywhere.

You would be up in arms if someone referred to you as cis, so why do you think you have the right to misgender females who don't want to identify as women?

Because I don't believe in gender identity ideology and think other things are more important and constructive than pandering to its believers. That's why, on both counts.

You would be up in arms if someone referred to you as cis, so why do you think you have the right to misgender females who don't want to identify as women? Who is it harming if a charity uses inclusive language to signify that if a non binary person or transman needs them, their identity will be respected?

Based on birth notification data, there were 151,104 live births that occurred in Quarter 4 (Oct to Dec) of 2020 in England and Wales which brings the total number of live births in 2020 to 615,557

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/livebirths/articles/provisionalbirthsinenglandandwales/2020andquarter1jantomar2021#number-of-live-births-and-fertility-rates

So well over half a million births.

Care to hazard a guess as to how many UK transmen/ female non binary people you think we are talking about who did the thing only female people can do and gave birth last year, poodle so we know how big this issue really is?

Because if we have to change the language of millions for the sake of a handful of people we need to know why we are doing this and what the consequences are of our 'empathy'.

This is not a zero sum game.

It's all about uncoupling the word 'female' and the word 'woman' and the word 'mother' from their biological moorings and setting them adrift so that male people can claim and appropriate them.

I entirely agree with what Daisies said

This is an ideological battle between those who support a continuation of a sex based society and those who seek a gender based society. The two cannot coexist. “Women and birthing people” is the language of gender identity and queer theory being imposed on all of us, even the heretics, even the majority who may be unaware of what is going on.

Another data gap. How many women find the language of gender identity dehumanising, confusing or even frightening if they are supportive of the traditional sex based understanding of the world? How many of us know that we will not be welcomed anywhere that uses the language of gender identity because of our heresy? How many are excluded by so called inclusive language due to not understanding it or the other reasons I have given? Why do that potentially much larger group matter so much less than adherents of gender identity? The reason can only be ideology. And misogyny.

Why empathy only for this tiny group of “birthing people”?

Because, again, because you missed it, this tiny group of people are looking at birthrights because they are traumatized . If you can't see why traumatized people should be given empathy then you've really got a problem.

As ever.

If it were about empathy there would be less bullying and nastiness involved.

Quite. It seems that Milli bent over backwards to raise her concerns in a sensitive way. The nasty personal attacks came from the "empathy" posse.

I must have missed the bit in the thread where feminists are claiming any of this as victory. It's all a fucking disgrace.

The more you attack a charity for using words you don't like, such as adding birthing people as well as the word women

Straw man, that isn't what's being criticised.

If it were about empathy there would be less bullying and nastiness involved.

Where is the empathy for those who are concerned about the implications of gender identity?

Why empathy only for this tiny group of “birthing people”?

I do believe that it is harmful to women and to society in general.