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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Stephanie Barrett representing Canada

107 replies

NancyDrawed · 07/07/2021 09:09

Such an inspirational story.

Started archery at the age of 37. Is representing Canada in the Olympics in Archery at the age of 42. How lucky that Stephanie just happens to have an Olympic level talent for archery. I wonder what it is that sets this athlete apart from the much younger women in the category, apart from their height?

olympic.ca/team-canada/stephanie-barrett/?fbclid=IwAR3KuaiAwauCilPrpnVPJnHI1EnL8_r_8ZVv32kWBdrw4U0Q6nXL0O4ZUoE

OP posts:
Runningupthecurtains · 07/07/2021 13:13

@IsItShining

If it’s within the rules, it isn’t cheating.

It’s the rules that are wrong.

The question is how did the rules get to be wrong? Did women spontaneous decide to make female categories open categories? No entitled males demanded to be accepted as women.

As I have said elsewhere who ever is orchestrating this should get a gold medal, there are playing a blinder. The TW that are going to the Olympics have been perfectly chosen. They are in non-contact sports so no danger of having to explain away any horrific injuries to actual women. They are two decades older than the likely winners in their events so they are unlike to win by a country mile (as men in their 20's would). They are events that favour tall/strong women so there is less of a visual contrast. They are "minority" sports so will be far less visible than a TW in the athletics. All our arguments will be countered, we will be shouted down but the precedent will be set and when the next Games come along the flood gates will open and women's sport will cease to be as competition for women. Hubbard and Barrett are Trojan horses and the "be kind" generation will be totally surprised when Troy is in flames in a few years time.

Helleofabore · 07/07/2021 12:54

As a side note, I can confirm that breasts DO NOT hinder female archers in any way.

But fuck it hurts when they get twanged!!!

TedImgoingmad · 07/07/2021 12:52

@trancepants

I agree that there are some people who are just 'sporty' and can do reasonably well in whichever sport they try - I think mindset has a lot to with it, as well as a good level of fitness. I doubt any of them could go from novice to Olympian in the space of 5 years if they were in the correct category, especially at such a relatively advanced age.

I know absolutely nothing about Stephanie Barrett however Geena Davis, who I think we all know is definitely a natal woman, took up archery in her early 40s. And she came very, very close to qualifying for the 2000 Olympics within about 2 years. She came 24th out of the 300 women who were good enough to compete for an Olympic team spot. Now as a wealthy, prominent person she was able to hire an Olympic coach right off the bat, which most women in the 40s won't be able to do. But even at that it's incredibly impressive to go from really enjoying watching the archery at the 1996 Olympics to nearly qualifying for the 2000 team in your 40s.

A biological female outlier does not prove that biological men have no advantages. As well as having the wealth to be trained by the best, GD is not your average woman in terms of height (she's 6 foot) and has had to train in various different sports for acting roles, so will have had a level of underlying fitness well into her 40s. She also never considered herself to be sporty until she did those physical activities as part of her acting career, and then realised she is bloody good at everything she turns her hand to. However, she was bloody good when competing against other females. She never competed against biological males.

Your average American woman in 5'4", and will have the corresponding arm reach. Your average American woman in her 40s will have had children and/or be experiencing the beginning of peri-menopause. She will not have the wealth or the name to attract top trainers. Taking up a sport like archery from scratch in their 40s is beyond the reach (literally!) of the vast majority of American women.

However, taking up archery and excelling in the women's category would, I venture, not require your average American male to be anything special at all. Yes, they would need to develop the skills, but if they were as skilled in the art as their 5'4" same age female contemporary, it would still not be an even match, because they would have the strength and probable height advantage.

A college level female archer posted this on reddit in response to a question as to why there are separate male and female categories:

Men and women compete separately in individual archery competition because men's scores are typically higher. For example, the new WRs are 700 (male) and 673 (female).

This is in large part due to the men having higher arrow speeds. Higher speed leads to higher scores because higher arrow speed = less wind interference + more forgiveness for form mistakes. As such, men don't have to account for the wind as much or be as precise with their movements. (They're still REALLY precise though!)

So how do men get this higher arrow speed? Two major reasons:

longer arms = longer draw length (basically how far you can pull back the bow)

stronger muscles = able to handle higher draw weight (basically how much force the arrows leaves the bow with)

So in conclusion, different physiologies require different categories.

As a side note, I can confirm that breasts DO NOT hinder female archers in any way.

Ironically, Geena Davis's involvement in archery apparently inspired many girls to take up the sport. How many such girls would drop out if they were competing against biological males?

DdraigGoch · 07/07/2021 12:52

@IsItShining

If it’s within the rules, it isn’t cheating.

It’s the rules that are wrong.

You are correct that it isn't technically cheating.

It is however morally cheating.

Clymene · 07/07/2021 12:46

@IsItShining

If it’s within the rules, it isn’t cheating.

It’s the rules that are wrong.

Well I couldn't live with myself but clearly some people don't care who they trample over in their desire for fame and success
aliasundercover · 07/07/2021 12:39

‘“She” always felt “she” was going to be an Olympian’

I bet a lot of blokes feel they could be an Olympian if they could compete solely against women.

Helleofabore · 07/07/2021 12:28

@IsItShining

If it’s within the rules, it isn’t cheating.

It’s the rules that are wrong.

To some degree you are right.

It is certainly reason to campaign to have all males removed from female sport categories.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 07/07/2021 12:20

@IsItShining

If it’s within the rules, it isn’t cheating.

It’s the rules that are wrong.

Although if these individuals had any morals they wouldn't be competing.
IsItShining · 07/07/2021 12:18

If it’s within the rules, it isn’t cheating.

It’s the rules that are wrong.

Clymene · 07/07/2021 12:14

Cheaters gonna cheat

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 07/07/2021 12:12

@Ekofisk

Upper body strength coupled with longer arms means that the archer can use a bow with a higher draw weight - so the arrow flies faster for longer and as a result will be more accurate.

Nothing to see here …

Or if the draw weight is set, they will be able to hold the bow drawn with ease compared to the female competitors with no tired arms causing shake when aiming.

Barrett has a huge advantage.

ScreamingMeMe · 07/07/2021 12:07

@TheLovleyChebbyMcGee

Oh right, well it doesn't change what I said before, best of luck to her!
A man competing against women probably doesn't need any 'luck'
SometimesIFeedTheSparrows · 07/07/2021 11:57

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/32382911

So in shooting the breast needs to be out of the way of the gun - are there similar rules for archery? If so I wonder if this was borne in mind when choosing the size of the implants?

NancyDrawed · 07/07/2021 11:57

@trancepants

I agree that there are some people who are just 'sporty' and can do reasonably well in whichever sport they try - I think mindset has a lot to with it, as well as a good level of fitness. I doubt any of them could go from novice to Olympian in the space of 5 years if they were in the correct category, especially at such a relatively advanced age.

I know absolutely nothing about Stephanie Barrett however Geena Davis, who I think we all know is definitely a natal woman, took up archery in her early 40s. And she came very, very close to qualifying for the 2000 Olympics within about 2 years. She came 24th out of the 300 women who were good enough to compete for an Olympic team spot. Now as a wealthy, prominent person she was able to hire an Olympic coach right off the bat, which most women in the 40s won't be able to do. But even at that it's incredibly impressive to go from really enjoying watching the archery at the 1996 Olympics to nearly qualifying for the 2000 team in your 40s.

Wow, I didn't know that about Geena Davis.

I stand corrected, then, archery may be a sport where if you have a talent for it, you can progress at remarkable speed regardless of age.

I stand by my comment that it is unfair to allow males to compete in female only categories.

OP posts:
Hestyo · 07/07/2021 11:55

Pandering to male delusions is so much more important than women's rights to fair competition.

OvaHere · 07/07/2021 10:54

@TheLovleyChebbyMcGee

Oh right, well it doesn't change what I said before, best of luck to her!
Shame about the young woman who missed out on a spot on the team who didn't experience the advantages of a male puberty, doesn't have the advantage of 3 decades of testosterone, a longer arm span, wider shoulders and faster twitch connectivity in muscles.

But sure, best of luck Steph Hmm

TheLovleyChebbyMcGee · 07/07/2021 10:46

Oh right, well it doesn't change what I said before, best of luck to her!

OvaHere · 07/07/2021 10:27

It is unfair to have males competing against females in what should be a female only category (and two males in what should be a mixed category). What would be stunning and brave, would be to have the Laurel Hubbards and the Stephaine Barretts competing as their true selves in the correct category for their sex.

That's what gets glossed over in all this though. No way would either of these two get a sniff at the Olympics if they were competing in the male category against much younger men.

Every woman in their category will be considerably younger than them. How is it that a very narrow demographic of people suddenly get to have elite sports careers at the age everyone else is retired or is approaching retirement?

I've never won a sporting award in my life. If only I was allowed to compete with 10 year olds maybe my middle aged dreams could all come true.

WomaninBoots · 07/07/2021 10:22

The strong jaw line and the Adams apple is a bit of a giveaway too. Once you suspect at least.

This is cheating. Countries sending transwomen to compete in women's sports are cheating.

trancepants · 07/07/2021 10:21

I agree that there are some people who are just 'sporty' and can do reasonably well in whichever sport they try - I think mindset has a lot to with it, as well as a good level of fitness. I doubt any of them could go from novice to Olympian in the space of 5 years if they were in the correct category, especially at such a relatively advanced age.

I know absolutely nothing about Stephanie Barrett however Geena Davis, who I think we all know is definitely a natal woman, took up archery in her early 40s. And she came very, very close to qualifying for the 2000 Olympics within about 2 years. She came 24th out of the 300 women who were good enough to compete for an Olympic team spot. Now as a wealthy, prominent person she was able to hire an Olympic coach right off the bat, which most women in the 40s won't be able to do. But even at that it's incredibly impressive to go from really enjoying watching the archery at the 1996 Olympics to nearly qualifying for the 2000 team in your 40s.

Ekofisk · 07/07/2021 10:21

Upper body strength coupled with longer arms means that the archer can use a bow with a higher draw weight - so the arrow flies faster for longer and as a result will be more accurate.

Nothing to see here …

YetAnotherSpartacus · 07/07/2021 09:58

Ah, OK - posted before the posts of the Twitter thread were posted.

I see now.

Helleofabore · 07/07/2021 09:58

@PronounssheRa

I don't understand the comments about 'ambiguious women' though. Are you saying she's a trans woman? I don't see any evidence of that anywhere.

From Stephanie's twitter feed.

Yes. Unless HRT & SRS is code for something else.
NancyDrawed · 07/07/2021 09:55

@TheLovleyChebbyMcGee

From reading her bio she's clearly a sporty person, I have friends like that, can turn her hand to any sport and be good after a short time, obvs not on this scale.

However, I think archery is a skill, and you either have it or you don't. Yes you can improve with time, but you cant take a person who is rubbish and have them become outstanding with training and coaching. Good luck to her!

I don't understand the comments about 'ambiguious women' though. Are you saying she's a trans woman? I don't see any evidence of that anywhere.

Not everything has to be about trans rights though.

TheLovley

I agree that there are some people who are just 'sporty' and can do reasonably well in whichever sport they try - I think mindset has a lot to with it, as well as a good level of fitness. I doubt any of them could go from novice to Olympian in the space of 5 years if they were in the correct category, especially at such a relatively advanced age.

Upper body strength plays a role in archery and of course someone who has had a testosterone fuelled puberty will benefit from that in this sport.

It is unfair to have males competing against females in what should be a female only category (and two males in what should be a mixed category). What would be stunning and brave, would be to have the Laurel Hubbards and the Stephaine Barretts competing as their true selves in the correct category for their sex.

OP posts:
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