Francine Niyonsaba has qualified for Tokyo Olympics

Thanks @OneEpisode. It is such a minefield and makes my head want to explode.

There are photos of Caster with school mates. There was a male school uniform and a female one. Caster wears the male version. The headteacher at the time believed Caster was male. Caster has done lots of interviews about having only male playmates, too.
There is no concrete evidence of being raised male though.

Do we actually know she was brought up male though? I have tried to search and I can only find articles that say she was brought up female and nothing the other way. Where has it come from? I'm not trying to argue- just wondering where I am missing it?

[quote NerrSnerr]@OhHolyJesus I always thought Semenya was raised as a female, it's certainly in the public domain that she was assigned as a female at birth. Do you have any links as I have just looked but can't find any.

I thought her story was that she thought she was female and had sex testing done behind her back (thinking it was a drugs test) but I may be wrong or my info may be outdated. [/quote]
Semenya didn't have a birth certificate until the age of 16, so this whole "AFAB" is nonsense.

@OhHolyJesus I always thought Semenya was raised as a female, it's certainly in the public domain that she was assigned as a female at birth. Do you have any links as I have just looked but can't find any.

I thought her story was that she thought she was female and had sex testing done behind her back (thinking it was a drugs test) but I may be wrong or my info may be outdated.

DSD and trans are two different groups of people, and DSD males may or may not be victims of unethical scouts. It's the end result I care about: men cheating women out of their rightful sport wins.

The five (5) nmol/L regulations, from IAAF come into effect from 1 November 2018.. so this is the first Olympics since.

I don’t know. It is public that all three were XY, and all can utilise the testosterone that their gonads produce. It is public that all three were subject to the 10nmol/L rule then the 5nmol/L rule.

Trans athletes and athletes with DSD conditions are separate but they are linked.

Would we have Laurel Hubbard if we didn't have Caster Semenya? Maybe we still would, but for me it's a "how it started, how it's going" situation. DSD athletes have been the Trojan horse for women's sport for a long time now. (You have to hand it to them, it's clever.)

Semenya was not raised as a girl and isn't trans, but it has proven convenient and necessary for this narrative of Semenya being a 'girl' to be be juxtaposed with trans rights in order to compete in women's sport.

We have known the results of DNA tests for 11 years now and we are still being convinced that Semenya is a victim of circumstance and not a cheat who has been surrounded by many who spin the same narrative for financial gain and the competitive advantage and continues to do so.

I think most people want the same @BatmansBat but I guess my worry is that it may set up people with DSD to then have people be transphobic against them when they have never transitioned and are just who they were brought up to be.

I'm not saying that people with xy chromosomes should compete in female disciplines but the DSD issue needs to be tackled with the governing bodies who are allowing it to happen (and actively seeking out these athletes) as they will do everything to find loopholes.

Male athletes transitioning to female and competing is different in my eyes as the athletes know 100% what they are doing without coercion or threats by their governing body or Nike to take their livelihood away.

I do appreciate that it must be incredibly hard for some DSD athletes. However, I think it also must be incredibly hard for biological XX women who are unlikely to win if XY athletes are allowed to compete. Is this a too simplistic way to view it?

No - if those XY athletes have a male biological advantage over XX athletes then it’s unfair.

There needs to be proper research into the XY advantages (or lack of) of DSD athletes at all distances, not just middle distances. Has that elevated testosterone contributed to lean muscle mass and fast twitch fibres that might give an advantage to sprinters, for instance?

Hands up if I made a mistake in linking these. I can appreciate that they may be separate issues.

For me, I guess it is quite simple. I want only biological women, XX, in women’s sport. I think that is the only fair way.

I do appreciate that it must be incredibly hard for some DSD athletes. However, I think it also must be incredibly hard for biological XX women who are unlikely to win if XY athletes are allowed to compete. Is this a too simplistic way to view it?

Can I please ask a question as I come from this from the athletics side where the trans debate and DSD debate are different and are being argued separately. Is this the same over here? Just because there seems to be a crossover on this thread (the petition and the link to shewon are related to trans athletes- unless I missed the DSD affected athletes on there)

We should never lose sight nor forget the names of the women who have lost their rightful medals to men.

Check out shewon.org

Caster Semenya apparently wanted to be a footballer but was persuaded to compete in women’s athletics.

Semenya, having won in the latter, has returned to the former, in 2019 Semenya joined a South African women's football club.

"So the South African, has started training with Gauteng-based JVW FC with a view to making her debut next season as the transfer window is currently closed.
“I am grateful for this opportunity and I appreciate the love and support I already get from the team,” she told the club’s website. “I am looking forward to this new journey, and hopefully I can contribute as much as I can to the club.”
Club founder and South Africa captain Janine Van Wyk said: “I am absolutely honoured that out of all the other women’s clubs around the world, she has chosen JVW as the club where she would like to start showcasing her football skills."

www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/sep/06/caster-semenya-starts-new-journey-after-joining-football-team

It's a tangled web, it's shit. The athletes themselves are not to blame in my opinion.

It’s hard not to be sympathetic to the athletes - with appearance and prize money and lucrative sponsorship deals they can be the main breadwinners that support their families.

www.change.org/p/international-olympic-committee-suspend-the-international-olympic-committee-s-transgender-policy?recruiter=9180747&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=share_petition&utm_term=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=67c16ac0-c974-012f-f158-40406f61fb41&utm_content=fht-17984608-en-gb%3Av12

Not sure if there is a better place to post this? We only seem to have two boards now ☹️

This really needs proper reporting, consideration and debate without the constant cries of racism, transphobia and misogyny.

I do agree with this and to make it a considered debate I think it's unfair to call someone who is brought up as a female a man, and continuing to do so will only further the agro.

Everyone within athletics wants this to be sorted and fairly, but it is difficult for current athletes to speak out as they don't want to be deemed as racist or anything else that may affect the sponsorship- especially as it is not easy to secure at the moment. When Lynsey Sharp spoke about Semenya (however clumsily) she was slaughtered by the media (of course her previous old firm football comments didn't help matters).

There is a lot of pressure behind these athletes from their governing bodies. It would not be easy for them to choose to reduce their testosterone through medication or not compete- many have Nike contracts who are the most unethical athletics sponsor and will do anything to make money from an athlete by whatever means (like Salazar).

It's a tangled web, it's shit. The athletes themselves are not to blame in my opinion.

The simple Y chromosome test was done internationally 1966-1991. There is some more fancy dna testing done now which also identifies competitors with a defence against doping with t. The fancy tests might not be done for all levels of sport, so a young athlete could have made significant investment in a particular career by the time the DSD is publicly revealed.
Caster Semenya apparently wanted to be a footballer but was persuaded to compete in women’s athletics.

This really needs proper reporting, consideration and debate without the constant cries of racism, transphobia and misogyny.

There needs to be a resolution to ensure a level playing field for females.

There are people with a Y chromosome that get no sporting advantage from testosterone. In Caitynn Jenner’s day they were doing a cheek swab test go check for a Y chromosome. There were some athletes who we think were genuinely surprised by the results.. they knew they hadn’t standard gnae development, but didn’t consider themselves male.
They abandoned the Y test restriction as a result, and replaced it with initially no restriction and then just this middle-distance testosterone restriction.

@Micemakingclothes We are all caught up in this debate, everyone in our society.

Basically after the 800m received a restriction (won silver in 2016), moved to long distance. Awesome.