Francine Niyonsaba has qualified for Tokyo Olympics

Semenya and Niyonsaba are subject to a Court of Arbitration ruling about males with disorders of sexual differentiation based on evidence presented by World Athletics/IAAF pertaining only to middle distance running and the impact of males with DSDs competing against women.

Hubbard is subject to the rulings made by the IOC and IWF after listening to a transwoman cobble together 8 mates to come up with some shonky research about trans athletes and convincing them that millions of years of human evolution giving us sexual dimorphism didn’t matter that much.

Both are bullshit, but they’re different for different reasons. The only reason Semenya hasn’t done what Niyonsaba has done is because Semenya is rubbish at 5000m, even compared to women.

So the required T level is different in weightlifting to athletics?

Hubbard is within the rules because Hubbard has accepted the requirement to take the pill. The pill has probably reduced haemoglobin closer to female levels, so speed is probably closer to female levels (though still higher). Strength probably unaffected though.

Sharron Davies is in the debate because she competed against XX women who were doped in the Eastern bloc on steroids. Sharron and other athletes didn’t get the medals they deserved as a result. The DDR etc women were clean of drugs at the competition but had residual benefits, like Hubbard.

Is it purely about T levels?

Semenya could compete according to current rules if they lowered testosterone to 5 nmol/l. Hubbard apparently is willing to abide by the IOC's higher 10 nmol/l, so does compete.

It's worth noting that 10 nmol/l is within the healthy range for a male. 5nmol/l is not. So 5 nmol/l would indicate at least some commitment to not being male.

10 nmol/l is basically inclusive - it's not much of a commitment for a male athlete. 5 nmol/l is more of a commitment. Not as much as genital reconstruction was, but it's something.

Semenya can compete. And Semenya can compete in women’s athletics. But Semenya doesn’t win when she takes birth control pills to stay within the hormone rules. So Semenya has chosen another sport.

I understand all the issues around Semenya but I just don't understand how it's right that Hubbard can compete while Semenya can't? Is it purely about T levels?

I saw this graphic on Twitter that I think highlights the difference between males and females and where the cutoffs are.

I feel specific issues relating to Semenya aren’t irrelevant and can have us going off on a tangent. There are males with DSD conditions who compete in female events and that’s resulted in a unfair advantage. I think whether they knew or not or when they found out is irrelevant. It should just be chromosome testing to split the two categories. I do feel sorry for people with DSD as it must be difficult to come to terms with when you find out.

I believe Semenya has fathered a child.

This is one of those nuggets I'm seeing thrown around a lot as if it's a fact, but it is just speculation, afaict. Semenya has a child, and it is often possible for people with Semenya's condition to be the biological father of their own child with medical assistance, but there's no evidence that this occurred in this case. I don't believe Semenya has addressed the issue, or even been asked. (It would be more than a little intrusive!)

My personal bet is that Semenya (like anyone) would have wanted to be a biological parent if possible, and it was likely possible, and Semenya could likely afford any level of procedure. So I personally think it's quite likely that Semenya is the biological father, but there's no evidence for it, so it can't be used as "more evidence Semenya is male". It's a deduction from the already-established fact that Semenya is male, with that specific DSD.

The DSD sports thing is highly divisive and has been going for years.

Tackle the standard males first
Those who are allowed by the IOC to have double the testosterone to those with DSDs for... Unknown reasons.

Are a different topic, anf and sensitive

To males born male lived male standard functional male physiology

Competing against women.

Why is this the only area where we have to let people have what they want to be kind?

Indeed.

I have persistently and consistently identified as a millionaire princess since I was 3, I think the only kind thing to do, would be for a billionaire, maybe Bezos, Musk or Gates, to send me my money and a tiara with a grovelling apology of why it has taken so long.

Despite my best efforts and lots of wishes on falling stars and crossing my fingers at magpies, my bank balance does not reflect my true identity and the closest thing I have to a tiara is a sparkly comb I wore at my wedding. That I paid for myself. No one paid for it for me. It's really very, very unkind.

How much money does Semenya have as a result of having a DSD condition that have been maximised in such a way? How much money does, oh I don't know, Lynsey Sharp have?

It may seem to be unfair to athletes with DSDs, however we are in the ridiculous situation that we have an olympic women's event with no women on the podium. I think the only way to be fair to the hundreds and thousands of women competing in that event all the way up from underage local competitions to international ones is to exclude all males with DSDs. We need to go back to chromosome testing - I wonder would any women athletes object? I doubt it.

Basically every woman in the world who competed at 800 m in 2016 at any level was disadvantaged by three (at least) male competitors - three fewer women in the final, three fewer selected for the olympics, the knock on effect is all they way down to grassroots level.

Surely being "unfair" to three is fairer than being unfair to thousands? Or do the thousands not matter because they are women and girls?

Also, by the way, transgender athletes are currently allowed to have 10 nanomoles per liter, not five

Not in athletics (as well as in some other sports).

3.2.3 she must keep her serum testosterone concentration below 5 nmol/L for so long as she wishes to maintain her eligibility to compete in the female category of competition.

www.worldathletics.org/download/download?filename=ace036ec-a21f-4a4a-9646-fb3c40fe80be.pdf&urlslug=C3.5%20-%20Eligibility%20Regulations%20Transgender%20Athletes

Athletes (track and field) have to comply with the WA rules to qualify for the Olympics.

I believe Semenya has fathered a child. Also, by the way, transgender athletes are currently allowed to have 10 nanomoles per liter, not five--they were going to have a rollback, but changed their mind. However, athletes with DSD "only" get 5. Both limits are unfair. To females.

..... and how come this is the only issue on which being kind to someone you feel sorry for is a considered criteria?

I was desperate and really ready to do my black belt test the day Covid lock down was announced. So I have not been able to do my black belt test. It would be kind just to give me my black belt but actually, no, I have to test for it - like everyone else - and that will be at the next opportunity which won't be for a long time.

When I was at school I wanted to be in the netball team, they didn't pick me, I was sad about it - but they didn't care about all my hurt feelings.

What about actors, musicians, dancers who spend their professional lives auditioning for parts they don't get? Would the kind thing be to let every actor have the part they want? No - a lot of people have to deal with the disappointment of not getting the parts they want, or the places on teams they want, or the qualifications they want.... I cried when I failed my driving test, but they still didn't pass me to be kind.

Why is this the only area where we have to let people have what they want to be kind?

Ooh, that’s a difficult one …

No.

Does Semenya present as female here?

Does Semenya present as female to the child Semenya has or is it only during training and competing that Semenya presents as female?

Interesting article brioche. I note it says Caster was put out of the girls football team age 14 as she was too tough and strong…

Thank you all. I couldn't find anything!!

Semenya doesn’t present as female with their partner.

The "testosterone - lowering medication" Semenya won't take because it "harms her health" is... The pill. Which most female athletes do take due to being female. Pregnancy would mess with high level competing. And yes the pill has lots of side effects but the female athletes just lump it.

Cross-post with Brioche, it took me three attempts to get that pic to load.

Sure Nerr.

From the DM in 2009, the same year the DNA tests results were leaked to the global media, see photos of Caster with the other school children, a boy and a girl, in a boys schools uniform and consider whether a girl would be permitted to wear the school uniform provided for boys at a strict Catholic school in Limpopo.

'She wouldn't wear dresses and sounds like a man on the phone': Caster Semenya's father on his sex-riddle daughter

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208227/She-wouldnt-wear-dresses-sounds-like-man-phone-Caster-Semenyas-father-sex-riddle-daughter.html

Also notice the article name Semenya as a man and also as a 'girl' throughout the article.

"The name of this unusual student? Step forward Caster Semenya, 18-year-old from an impoverished black township who is at the centre of a row raging across the world following allegations that she is, in fact, a man."

From parts of the article you could think that Semenya have been, what we now call, a gender non confirming girl. If we didn't have DNA test results (that have since disappeared from the internet) we could be less to believe that. I'm not convinced that a girl from a strict Catholic school in rural South Africa, where girls are still to this day at a disadvantage, would be allowed to wear trousers just because she wanted to.

(I've lived in SA and worked in education and see no evidence of schools like Caster's being anywhere near as accommodating and relaxed as has been claimed.)

On the trans athletes issue:

From the Guardian today

www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2021/jun/22/by-conflating-gender-and-sex-we-undermine-sporting-competition?fbclid=IwAR36tCLsBqHKH-YyOpacfMkhKjZa615xfRC5A6ShtBln74gLYq-KKEEL9e0

This is an article that talks about CS's childhood and has a photo of her in boy's uniform because it was preferred to girl's uniform.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208227/She-wouldnt-wear-dresses-sounds-like-man-phone-Caster-Semenyas-father-sex-riddle-daughter.html

This is as close as they get to mentioning DSD.

"It seems unlikely that so many people could lie about Caster Semenya's sex. Now, medical experts are speculating that she may be a quirk of nature - a woman with either under-developed male sexual organs inside her body, or an abnormal number of male chromosomes."