Helen Webberley

I agree OldTurtle.

A friend of mine is an HCP and works in an LGBTQIA+ sexual health clinic. She said to me "I just don't understand why anyone would deny a child puberty blockers"

I don't understand what it is about gender that means an HCPs critical thinking and reflective practice gets suspended. She's an otherwise excellent sexual health nurse. But on this stuff, she's an actual idiot IMO. Of course, she thinks I'm great, apart from on this stuff where I'm a nasty old bigot. One of us is right, and it's not her.

With regards comments speculating on Webberley's motivation, I don't think she is purely a grifter.
If that were true, I find it difficult to believe she'd be so stupid as to risk it with this kind of comment indicating its her 'mission' to give kids 'puberty with their peers' i.e cross sex hormones from puberty.
I think she'd be trying to fly a little more under the radar rather than being so blatant.
I think she is a true believer. There are plenty of them about. Unfortunately, the history of medicine is littered with crusading individuals pushing unneeded and horrific treatments.

What a chilling thread - and thank you to all the medics and informed posters who are explaining / clarifying what's happening.

I am aghast at the dismal levels of medical ethics / professionalism that have been offered to vulnerable children.

Ah, I hadn't realised it was Webberley's counsel questioning him. I got muddled and thought that Stern was the GMC's counsel. But that explains why the questioning seemed a bit adversarial at times.
Thank you Signalbox. Much clearer now.

I think I get it now - GB was administering blockers but refused to administer cross-sex hormones (and specifically T) and wouldn't have thought them appropriate for several more years. The patient obtained T behind his back from HW?

Sorry if this has already been explained, but why is the GMC counsel spending so much time questioning Gary Butler? What is his connection to Webberley's case? Is it simply that he is setting out the standard way of dealing with child patients with dysphoria (to the extent that such standards exist) so that this can be compared with how Webberley handled them? Or something else entirely?

Such a disgusting testimony by Oakes about self-harm.

Cutting in young girls doesn't 'have to happen'. It's not some force of nature preventable by HRT. It definitely doesn't exist so you can wax lyrical about it to eventually legitimise your own AGP and support your monetary interests.

These girls need continual support - people who can get to the root of their pain and actually make an effort to understand them, rather than pretending they can be fixed by a miracle drug.

I was 13 during the height of the self-harm contagion and my friend who cut herself started ID'ing as a trans boy a few months after showing me that she'd carved the word 'DIE' into her leg. Surely there's something deeper going on in cases like this - and if they can't handle early teenagehood without erratically self-harming, what makes professionals think they'll be able to cope with the distressing process of medication to change sex?
Sorry for OT post. Just makes me angry!

GenderGP website
"Marianne Oakes, Dip Couns
As a fully qualified counsellor, with a post grad diploma in Gender Sexuality and Diverse Relationships, Marianne is our most experienced counsellor in the field of transgender care. She heads up our team of specialist gender counsellors at GenderGP. Marianne combines her own experiences as a trans woman with her affinity for others going through their own gender journey.

She came into this particular branch of therapy after struggling to find someone who could support her with her own transition. Marianne brings a unique insight to her practice, both from her own first hand experiences and her understanding of the impact which transition can have on families and loved ones.

She enjoys working with people of all ages, including children and their families, creating a non-judgmental space in which parents can talk openly about their own issues in relation to their child’s transition.

Client types:
Marianne works with people of all ages as well as neuro diverse individuals. She offers support to those suffering with GSRD and generic mental health challenges such as trauma, depression, anxiety and grief. She also works with families and partners who may be struggling with accepting a loved one’s transition."
www.gendergp.com/gendergp-network/marianne-oakes/

It is very apparent listening to the podcasts with Webberley and Oakes that Oakes has little awareness of family dynamics, child development, impact of grief, trauma,abuse, ADHD, autism and/or co-morbidities.

I would not be surprised if the recent exchange below becomes a case study in the future as it illustrates clear points of Safeguarding/Child Protection failure and the impact/s of gender identity ideology on a 10 year old child and family that should never have ended up being used to promote an unregulated online business.

Gender GP
"On this episode of the GenderGP podcast, Marianne and Helen are joined by the mum of a trans child. She shares her story of the challenges they’ve faced, the journey they’ve been on together, and the brave child at the heart of it."
www.gendergp.com/fighting-for-care-for-my-trans-child/

(transcript extract)
Marianne Oakes
Just to add to that, Lindsay. Is you haven't just got to have the Gillick competence to understand the medication, you've got to have the Gillick competence to understand the implications of not taking the medication, and actually that's a whole area that people forget, there's a choice here for all of you, you know for Danny to start puberty blockers or not. And yeah, there's side effects of puberty blockers. But if he doesn't take them there's a risk that he's gonna, you know his mental health is just gonna spiral, there's a risk that it will go into a tailspin that you'll end or, you know, with a life of, God knows, you know mental health issues with addictions are [unclear]. I'm not saying that it would happen. We've got to understand that that is a very high possibility. When we look at the, you know, the suicide risk. So so, not helping, there's probably more to consider by not giving the medication.

Lindsay
Absolutely, and you know what, as well I think it's so important to talk about the risks because they're always brushed under the carpet. You know, never at Tavistock, or through my GP, have we discussed, self harm, you know, depression, anxiety, suicide risk. All of these things aren't discussed but they're very much there. And that is what we need to know about so that if that does happen, we can support our children.

Marianne Oakes
I was gonna say one of the first young people I saw when I started working with Helen. They came to my therapy room in Wilmslow. And, you know everything else I've done online, but this one, I think there were about 13 or 14, this child. And the grandparent brought them, they were living with the grandparents. And I met them in the waiting room and I just said do you want to come through and I ask the grandparent did they want to come too, and they said "no I want to come through on my own." And you know, okay, as they came into the room I said "you want to take your coat off", and they took the coat off, and the scars on their arms, I nearly retched. I mean it wasn't just little vein tag cuts, they were swollen, all the way up both arms. Such was the pain being caused by dysphoria, and you know if they could have gone to their doctor before it got to that and being given the blockers, then that would never have had to happen. And this is what I say that there's a whole area of this is ignored completely, people don't want to, don't even want to acknowledge that that's a possibility. They're so focused on the side effects of medication.

Lindsay
I completely agree with you. I've seen it myself with Danny, he struggles with anxiety and low moods. This week has been really tough for him, I actually kept him off school yesterday, he, I've never seen him this low. He is normally such a chatty bubbly child. I took him to school today, and he never said a word, the whole way and that's never happened. And I can see that he's sad, and I said to him, you know "are you alright?" And he said "no," and I said "are you feeling sad" and he said, "I do feel sad, mum." You know, and it's just not, it's not on, it's not fair.

Marianne Oakes
It's not needed.

Lindsay
No, it's not needed.

Marianne Oakes
Everything you've said, Danny came out at young enough age that he should never have had to go through any of that, you know, I would say." (continues)

NB Lindsay is mother to 10 year old female child, D. D has diagnosis of ADHD and seen by CAMHS. D's parents are separated and disagree about medical interventions. Lindsay sought referral to NHS Tavistock GIDS via GP when D was 5 years old.

(extract)
Lindsay 16:50
"It's been quite a distressing experience. I personally feel. Danny's dad feels completely different. He respects what they say and thinks we should be guided by what they tell us that, as a parent, I feel completely different. I can't, I can't allow Danny, to not have hormone blockers until he's experienced periods. This is the advice I've been given. Sorry, it chokes me up thinking about it. So, for the last year and a bit, the meetings with Tavistock, Danny hasn't been he's been once to Tavistock to see them. Once in the whole time we've been with them. And he's been seen twice on Zoom, and it's so frustrating that Tavistock feel they have got enough knowledge about my child by seeing him three times to make these decisions about his future. It's wrong. It's absolutely wrong. And before I have any meeting with Tavistock I always say to Danny, I always have done: "Have you got any questions?" And he's always said to me, "When can I start the tablets?" He associated hormone blockers with those tablets, that's just how he interpreted it. So I'd always say to Tavistock, "Danny's got a question, when can he start hormone blockers?" And I was always told: "When that time comes we will support you with that." And I had complete faith that they would, but sadly that hasn't happened. A meeting in the last year, I mentioned hormone blockers, I said "Danny is developing he's definitely at Tanner stage two." I asked if there's a blood test they could do to see whether he was going through puberty and I was advised that there isn't a blood test available to check that, which isn't true, because you can check that. And I've now been told by Tavistock, that they would expect Danny to go through puberty, have periods, and then they will put him on the pathway to consider hormone blockers. Now we all know that that pathway isn't a quick pathway. I've had to make a complaint against one of our caseworkers at Tavistock, because I mentioned to her that I contacted Gender GP to sort out hormone blockers for Danny because I had to. And I was advised heavily, not to go with Gender GP, because they've been struck off, this that and the other. And I was told by this caseworker if I allowed a prepubescent child to go onto hormone blockers, it would be akin to mutilation."

I was also wondering why I'm blocked by that account but all is now clear.

I would stick to the other tweet account reporting the case.

twitter.com/tribunaltweets/status/1420643955000156160?s=21

I would say so - I don’t have an account, so when I look at a tweet, I get similar account suggestions following on from the one I’m viewing. This account seems to have a definite tone about it….

@Signalbox
Why you are blocked might be explained by the tweets following under this “independent” account that is tweeting the case….

Annoyingly I'm blocked by that tweeter. I wonder why.

That being the case, there seems some contradiction with the account's claim, "This is an independent account set up specifically to live-tweet Dr Helen Webberley’s MPTS hearing. We are not affiliated with the MPTS"

Its difficult to know how comprehensive/independent live tweeting is without either comparing to the full transcript of a hearing or being witness.

Me too, signalbox...

If any one is following the tweets there is another tweeter here:

twitter.com/MPTS_Hearing/status/1420668085690830848?s=19

Which has been very comprehensive today.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g Oakes does not seem bound by sexist stereotypes.

Women Are Human
'These Chains That Have No Name: Interview with Trans Widows Voices' By Donovan Cleckley -March 31, 2021
(extract)

DC Similar to Brunskell-Evans, in one of your tweets, you observe that, for men with autogynephilia, inventing ‘the transgender child’ serves, in your words, “to convince the world that autogynephilia is not a fetish.” For heterosexual males, especially those who have abused and exploited their wives, this naturalization of what they do, as if it cannot be helped, seems to be a cover for their coercive patterns of behavior. What have you noticed about the appropriation of “the transgender child” as a sort of symbol for the innocence of men subjecting women to otherwise severe mistreatment?

TWV This is connected to something which I call the trans widow’s conundrum. During our marriages, to a greater or lesser degree, we see our husbands go through some kind of struggle relating to their identity. Often, we see them move from secret crossdresser to identifying as a ‘trans woman.’ There comes a point where they have to make a choice between continuing to live in a ‘male’ role, so to speak, or socially and medically transitioning. If they choose to transition, rather than live secret lives as crossdressers, then they very quickly have to start to project the idea that it was not a choice at all, but rather was really inevitable. Usually, they will say that they had to make the decision to transition – or else, as it goes, they would have killed themselves. They also have to begin to say that they were “born this way,” despite all the evidence to the contrary that the wife will have seen of her husband. This tactic aligns with ‘queer theory,’ attempting to bring the crossdressing husbands’ situations into line with that of LGB people. The thing is, though, that in doing this, while they may feel it excuses their actions to the rest of the world, it makes the situation only more of a conundrum for the wife. Which version should we believe? It is possible to accept that your husband married you in good faith, but then changed – especially when you have seen this situation develop with your own eyes. But it is impossible to accept that he married you under false pretenses, always knowing who he was, deep down, and what he needed to do for himself. If we believe the “born this way” interpretation, then, in fact, it makes our exes more, not less, like villains. We can never think well of those who hoodwinked us into acting as their ‘beards.’

For ‘born this way’ to be true, it is necessary for ‘the transgender child’ to exist. We are expected to believe that the middle-aged male transitioner, both a husband and a father, has so much in common with teenage girls who are struggling with their sexuality and gender identity. This expectation is why many of our exes become very vocal in supporting the idea of children and young people being ‘transgender.’ They may even say that they do not want gender-nonconforming children now to go through what they suffered in childhood, but, more often than not, even that is a total misrepresentation of history. Indeed, our exes often had seemingly normal, otherwise happy, gender-conforming childhoods, going from boyhood into manhood." (continues)

www.womenarehuman.com/these-chains-that-have-no-name-interview-with-trans-widows-voices/

I see Marianne is 59, i.e. no more than a year younger than me. We therefore grew up in similar times. I seem to have been luckier than Marianne in not feeling as bound by gender stereotypes, judging by this entry from Marianne's blog from Sept 2019.

My role within the family faced an unexpected challenge this month when my youngest son decided to embark on the massive project of building a timber-framed garage, incorporating a recording studio and gymnasium - not for the faint hearted!

Before I trained as a counsellor I was a carpenter and joiner by trade, so I knew I would be expected to muck in.

In the past, before HRT, this would have triggered my dysphoria and led to questions about where I fit as a parent, how my family sees me and whether they truly accept me for who I am. I would have been anxious about whether the project would invalidate my gender identity somehow. I am delighted to report that this was not the case. In this instance, using a combination of my brains and my sons ability, we are now 60% of the way there. It has been a great bonding exercise which has proven to me that my place in their lives has not diminished in any way because I have transitioned.

So, customers have a remote assessment with one of their Pathway People, e.g. the former croupier. The customer tells the PP what they want and the PP sends a report to the Medical Team, who devise a Care Plan from that report. It appears to be possible to never have any actual contact with a qualified clinician throughout the entire "Gender Journey"

The Clinical Lead is an Egyptian doctor, who is also a transwoman, presumably based in Egypt. I can find no record of this person being registered with the GMC and Gender GP appears to rely on professional staff based in other countries.
www.gendergp.com/medical-hub/a-gendergp-guide/

They are currently recruiting, no experience required
www.gendergp.com/jobs/

We are looking for doctors to join our team. You must be passionate about equality in healthcare, and understand the principle of gender-affirming care and informed consent, particularly in the care of adults and adolescents. Applicants can come from a wide variety of specialisms, including General Practice, Sexual Health, General Medicine, Paediatrics etc. No direct experience is required and full training is provided. The only essential qualification is a license to practice medicine in your country or work, and the drive and passion to help transgender patients with their medical transition. You must have an excellent command of the English language. More information on the care of trans patients can be found here.