Helen Joyce book in MoS

Thanks @FloralBunting

Yes I agree it's impossible to define exactly what cohort of people we are talking about now.

I think that's bravely and well spoken, Ova, and indeed, apart from a very few notable exceptions, I have only ever seen transwomen visit FWR, for example, to explain why women's boundaries are arbitrary and wholly malleable based on the wants and comfort of the transwoman.

This attitude ranges from the overt disregard 'get over it' style demand often displayed by the poster on this thread, through the wheedling 'I try to be respectful as I ignore the boundaries of women' (an example of which we've seen here with a new poster in the last couple of days, and many times before) to even some purported feminist allies who operate on the perception that, as they are one of the naice transwomen who sort of get women's concerns, they get a pass.

But I do agree with OldTurtle that it's pretty much impossible to use the phrase 'what ordinary trans people want' in any meaningful sense, given the trans umbrella encompasses such a wide and varied cohort, many of whom have absolutely no shared characteristics whatsoever.

I am amused that the stellar legal mind on the thread appears to either be suggesting that Helen is right and their demands are not shared by the vast bulk of trans people, or that you are right and most trans people do indeed want to disregard and silence women.

I mean, I think either of those possibilities is pretty damning to the credibility of the notion of transactivism being a benign civil rights movement, but then I'm not the lawyer defending an lobby group that tried to force a firm to bully a black lesbian because she disagreed with the lobby group.

Perhaps I'll be kind and call it chutzpah.

That sounds interesting, have you any links please @face

Ova, that is an interesting point. Worth looking at the international angle as well. I've been trying to extend my range of media sources recently beyond my usual left wing class based analysis ones and found some work by Anne Applebaum, who lives in Poland and has witnessed 20+ years of lgbt astroturfing which she observes as having made life much worse for the lgb community there.

The awful Teetus Deletus surgeon Sidhbh Gallagher made me ashamed to be Irish. Helen Joyce makes me proud again.

I don't disagree about a potential backlash that could be harmful. I'm just questioning the idea that Self ID, the changes to language etc...isn't what most trans people want

I think this is a difficult question to answer. Because who on earth is the average trans person? The very young children who are being told they're born in the wrong body for not conforming to the 'right' gender? The middle aged male transitioner? The teenage girl who is being bullied for being a lesbian? A non-binary uni student?
The umbrella is too big and too varied to put everyone in a box. I do agree that a large portion of self identifying trans people are likely to want self id though. I think it's part and parcel of falling down the gender rabbit hole.

[quote EmbarrassingAdmissions]popular one amongst people who are critical of gender ideology but is that true really? Or is it just something we've been telling ourselves?

I'm apprehensive about a backlash that might reduce rights for many groups as part of a general pushback. It's not unusual in history to the point where it's common enough that it's known as Thermidorian reaction.

For historians of revolutionary movements, the term Thermidor has come to mean the phase in some revolutions when power slips from the hands of the original revolutionary leadership and a radical regime is replaced by a more conservative regime, sometimes to the point where the political pendulum may swing back towards something resembling a pre-revolutionary state.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermidorian_Reaction[/quote]
I don't disagree about a potential backlash that could be harmful. I'm just questioning the idea that Self ID, the changes to language etc...isn't what most trans people want.

The idea that the leaders of the movement and the activists aren't speaking for the people they represent. I just don't think there's enough evidence to state that confidently.

popular one amongst people who are critical of gender ideology but is that true really? Or is it just something we've been telling ourselves?

I'm apprehensive about a backlash that might reduce rights for many groups as part of a general pushback. It's not unusual in history to the point where it's common enough that it's known as Thermidorian reaction.

For historians of revolutionary movements, the term Thermidor has come to mean the phase in some revolutions when power slips from the hands of the original revolutionary leadership and a radical regime is replaced by a more conservative regime, sometimes to the point where the political pendulum may swing back towards something resembling a pre-revolutionary state.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermidorian_Reaction

Excellent article. And looks like Dawkins has come off the fence in style:

"A frighteningly necessary book: well-written, thoroughly researched, passionate and very brave.' - Richard Dawkins, evolutionary biologist"

Good article. I've been looking forward to reading Helen's book since she announced she was writing it.

I have to question this bit though. It's something virtually all authors and journalists preface their writing with but recently I'm questioning how true it actually is.

As well as serving the interests of trans people very poorly, the ideological focus of this powerful lobby means it seeks to silence anyone who does not support gender self-identification.

What's more, I fear, its overreach is likely to provoke a backlash that will harm ordinary trans people who simply want safety and social acceptance.

This idea of a silent majority of trans people (especially ones born male) who do not agree with the direction of travel pushed by activists and lobbyists. How true is this exactly?

I've been following this issue from a women's rights perspective for roughly 6/7 years now and I can still only think of a handful of people who identify as transgender/transsexual who have spoken up with any real disagreement.

I'm not convinced in one sense that this powerful lobby is serving the interests of the majority poorly. If we go back as far as the early days of The Beaumont Society I think there's more evidence to suggest what is happening is what has always been wanted and actually interests are being served very well.

I know the narrative that 'ordinary trans people' are going be harmed and don't want this either is a popular one amongst people who are critical of gender ideology but is that true really? Or is it just something we've been telling ourselves?

I love the way Helen Joyce's brain works. She's so smart.

I wonder if just sending Helen’s book is better. I liked Shrier but found her a little sensationalised and Stock good but academic. As an Economist writer, Helen is thorough and unemotional.

That's a decent book extract.

Daley Thompson turned out for the WPUK sports event where Sharron Davies was one of the speakers.

Good idea. Happy to also send one to my (rather sensible) HT.

Wow. The daily mail is a huge influence. Amazing to see that article in there, and it is quite hard to argue with Joyce's points. verything she states is worthy of debate. Everything.

How can anyone take Stonewall seriously? They are lobbyists, not medics, scientists sociologists or philosophers. Where have those people been in all this? How on earth have Stonewall managed to trample over common sense?

Am off to google whether Virgin are stonewall champions.

A book sending campaign would be excellent!
I suggest these three:

Irreversible Damage - Abigail Shriver
Material Girls - Kathleen Stock
Trans - Helen Joyce

To ALL headteachers and school leaders for a start.

Daley Thompson supporting Helen

mobile.twitter.com/Daley_thompson/status/1411452605746843649

Is anyone on for a book sending campaign? My org is a Stonewall Champion and I’ll send a copy to my CEO and also to my MP.

So many people are going along with Stonewall demands because at first glance it seems like the kind, inclusive thing to do but there is nothing kind about sending rapists to women’s prisons.

Excellent article and I also posted it - will also get it deleted

I bloody love Helen Joyce, she's properly smart. I too have the book on pre-order and can't wait to read it

Excellent article. I've got the book on pre-order. I can't wait to read it.

The DM have been very good on this issue. And The Times. And The Observer. But not The Guardian.

Who’d’a thought that MNetters would approve of DM articles

Well, this one's not really a DM article - it's a book extract.

(But the DM have been doing good articles on this topic!)

A similar book questioning this current trend is Irreversible Damage by Abigail Shriver.