Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can you please help me articulate the issues with this? Jigsaw

88 replies

LimeLemonBergamot · 03/07/2021 09:22

Have NC for this.

This is an excerpt of a lesson aimed at 6-7 year olds under the 'Celebrating Difference' topic. It's a lesson on gender diversity.

There is a character, 'B'- where it is unclear if they are male or female. Jigsaw states that 'the lesson looks at whether being a boy or girl makes a difference when choosing friends and toys'. I'm not seeing this- surely a lesson that wanted to show this would explicitly show Billy playing with toys that are stereotypically girls toys and vice versa with Bella- and make the point that this is absolutely fine and normal because toys are toys for anyone. Why is it necessary to have a character whose sex is unclear, to stimulate a discussion on 'whether being a boy or girl makes a difference when choosing friends and toys?'

I think this is reinforcing gender stereotypes- Billy and Bella throughout this conform to stereotypes based on toys, who they think boys and girls should be playing with, and at the end we are told that they are happy being a boy or girl, and B is happy being B. Why are boys and girls shown to be so rigidly conforming- that children must have to be B to not conform to stereotypes- and what is a 6 or 7 yr old supposed to think about who B is?

Please help me articulate this a bit better. I need to go back to my children's school and wonder if I've explained the issues properly.

Can you please help me articulate the issues with this? Jigsaw
Can you please help me articulate the issues with this? Jigsaw
Can you please help me articulate the issues with this? Jigsaw
OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Thread gallery
7
Lowhum · 20/07/2021 09:32

When I see school materials like this I always think of The Apprentice where they have put the wrong person to the task and only have 40 minutes left to get it all together!

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 19/07/2021 22:46

Even in the 1950s stereotypes weren’t taught and enforced like this. The stereotypes may have been widely accepted, and homosexuality was illegal, but nobody told kids they were somehow in the wrong body if they didn’t conform.

Blibbyblobby · 19/07/2021 15:19

We cannot just pretend that they [sexual stereotypes] don’t exist if we want children to grow up as reflective questioning individuals. It is the discussion and reflection that comes out of these lessons that is important in the context of the whole wider programme

Which sounds very laudable but doesn’t explain why they are teaching children that a child who doesn’t fit those stereotypes is neither boy nor girl, rather than that the existence of that child proves the stereotypes are wrong. So what they are teaching is the opposite of questioning stereotypes (unless their only concern is the specific “stereotype” (or in this case fact) that girls are female and boys are male.)

Mollyollydolly · 19/07/2021 14:58

It's sexist stereotype bollocks and so regressive. This would have been called out as sexist in the 80s, how have we regressed so far. Makes my blood boil, even without the heatwave.

LimeLemonBergamot · 19/07/2021 14:50

I'm sure I'm going to be labelled as one of 'those' parents but I'm just so sick of this nonsense now.

OP posts:
PhiRhoSigma · 19/07/2021 14:11

@grey12

The mere fact that it keeps emphasising "girl's toys" and "boy's toys" is upsetting..... Envy
This. Surely all young children will play with any toys that take their fancy.

I raised three daughters (no sons) and they were offered 'girls' AND 'boys' toys. Some they liked, some they didn't. My Little Pony was a great hit, so was Lego, so were video games like Minecraft.

Restricting toy choices for any child is a shame. Gender does not need to come into it at all, why does anyone need to call things 'toys for girls' etc.

'Bella' and 'Billy' sound like they have already had their horizons limited by stereotyping, what a shame.

LimeLemonBergamot · 19/07/2021 13:42

Wanted to update.

Had a not particularly satisfactory reply from the school. Jigsaw are (as predicted) not really engaging with the points I raised (with all of your help- thankyou)!

This is from the reply I received:

*From Jigsaw's perspective, they say it is tricky to not talk about sexual stereotypes without exposing them and that these should promote reflective discussions where stereotypes are explored. They also state:

'We cannot just pretend that they don’t exist if we want children to grow up as reflective questioning individuals. It is the discussion and reflection that comes out of these lessons that is important in the context of the whole wider programme'.*

I've replied to say I still believe the lesson goes against DfE guidelines and that I'm going to get in touch with Safe Schools Alliance, as well as my MP, who I've discussed these issues with before and was aware I was speaking to the school about their PSHE curriculum. So I'm guessing I should contact DfE/Ofsted as well?

OP posts:
thirdfiddle · 06/07/2021 10:58

The stereotypes! How utterly ridiculous. All children should be encouraged to just be themselves AND to be happy being the sex they are.

They seem to be deliberately suggesting that "being a boy" is an activity involving a particular set of toys and hair length.
This is really offensive and against govt guidelines to boot.

" You should not reinforce harmful stereotypes, for instance by suggesting that children might be a different gender based on their personality and interests or the clothes they prefer to wear."

www.gov.uk/guidance/plan-your-relationships-sex-and-health-curriculum#ensuring-content-is-appropriate

NiceGerbil · 05/07/2021 22:35

The pictures themselves are a problem.

Long hair = girl
Short hair = boy
Medium hair = trans (non binary?)

Whole thing is a shitshow of pushing stereotypes while claiming to do the opposite.

Grellbunt · 05/07/2021 13:46

It's just so ... obvious?

But I am starting to realise that I really really am the exception in terms of not caring about stereotypes. I wasn't brought up with them and I worked in a pretty unusual job where your qualifications were really the only thing people cared about. But now living in a small rural town and looking at the media I can see that most people have pretty rigid views.

cartwheelsareus · 05/07/2021 13:29

Why is Bella the one with .long hair and Billy the one with short hair? Is hair length how we know who's a boy and who's a girl now?

LimeLemonBergamot · 05/07/2021 13:22

Exactly Grellbunt. Biological reality rather than stupid stereotypes.

OP posts:
Grellbunt · 05/07/2021 13:05

For me boxes are fine, but they need to be penis box and vagina box. Not fucking footballs and fluffy unicorns.

LimeLemonBergamot · 05/07/2021 12:07

'Jigsaw are aware of the challenge of a binary-focused English language'- surely the English language is just based on reality? Is this not painting 'binary' as they would term it in a negative light- is this the promotion of non-binary? But none of us 'binary' if we just believe in the reality of biological sex. I'm a woman because I'm female, not because I put lipstick on this morning.

I feel like I'm going mad trying to get my head about this and articulate it all.

Can you please help me articulate the issues with this? Jigsaw
OP posts:
Grellbunt · 05/07/2021 10:53

Ah, so you don't fit in our boxes?
No, I can't make them a different shape, sorry. I need to make a new box for you.

LimeLemonBergamot · 05/07/2021 09:13

NiceGerbil thankyou so much for this- it's helped me clarify what I was trying to say!

OP posts:
NiceGerbil · 05/07/2021 01:26

Let's try it with race/ religion.

Lesson for 6yo.

Children who are white/ Christian.

Have strong views about those who are not.

They will make comments and laugh at them about their race/ religion.

They naturally will exclude them and bully them.

...

What messages does that give a class with different races/ religions?

It tells the white/ Christian children that these behaviours are expected and normal.

It tells the other children that again, it's normal to be treated like that. And the only thing to be done is burst into tears. And hope the other children have consumed the message that they have to go against their natural bigotry and be kind.

I mean. What? How is that s good way to go about any of this?

NiceGerbil · 05/07/2021 01:19

They are introducing / confirming that

There are girls things
There are boys things.
It is normal to bully children who do not conform
Children who do not conform will naturally not fit in with girls or boys (great message!)
They also burst into tears and are unable to stand up for themselves so the other children must be careful with them

In the follow up. Children with parents who don't adhere to stereotypes may make them feel confused and out of place.

Great messages.

NiceGerbil · 05/07/2021 01:13

Well this

'including those with family members who do not fit typical gender stereotypes,'

How many people on the planet adhere to stereotypes all the time?

What stereotypes are they thinking of? Is there a list? They vary between areas countries religions etc etc. There is no approved list.

EG some areas are much more dressy than others. Which norms are the ones to judge conformity by?

LimeLemonBergamot · 04/07/2021 21:50

I've also noticed this sentence in the accompanying document for (I guess) teachers/parents:

''This means our Jigsaw approach is one we feel will fit most schools and most children, valuing children from all types of families, including those with family members who do not fit typical gender stereotypes, and those children who may struggle with their own sense of how they fit in'.

This isn't on is it. So if children have family members who don't fit typical gender stereotypes and if those children themselves are struggling with how they fit in, is the answer not to tear up these stupid stereotypes? Which this lesson has completely failed to do?

I'm a woman because I'm an adult human female. I like makeup and wearing nice dresses, I've always had long hair because I like my hair that way. I also love football and formula one, and used to love WWE wrestling when I was younger. Probably at the same time as I was listening to Britney and trying to dress like her. I enjoyed hanging around with the lads at school and the first drink I used to regularly drink as a teenager was pints of lager at the footy. So where do I fit in with their 'stereotypes'? What is the obsession with putting everyone in boxes? I remember in sociology at GCSE discussing gender stereotypes and how regressive they were. That was 2003, how have we gone so backwards from then?

Can someone please help me articulate what I'm trying to say about the above sentence? As I feel like that warrants commenting on to but I'm really struggling to sound intelligent. Spending a long time reading threads on FWR is exhausting Sad

OP posts:
NiceGerbil · 04/07/2021 21:21

The starting assumption that children pretty much all are bullies wed to stereotype so strongly is straight off s damaging message.

They aren't. Some more than others. Usually about only a couple of things, not everything.

They are being told this behaviour is expected and normal.

That's a terrible approach.

EyesOpening · 04/07/2021 20:17

“Billy wants to play with boys toys.
Bella wants to play with girls toys
Are there toys just for girls and toys just for boys?”

Well they’ve just been told there are, it’s not even a subliminal message.
I think 6/7 years olds are too young to interpret this any other way.

ArtemesiaK · 04/07/2021 19:32

This makes me furious. I can't imagine my reaction if my girls had been presented with this crap in the 1980s ( 2 girls, both entirely different, different personalities, different interests. Oh, perhaps one or both was actually non-binary?) My Granddaughter now has they/them pronouns, though she hasn't mentioned it to me or her mother (Instagram).....

NiceGerbil · 04/07/2021 18:47

My birth body was such that about 10 days after having a baby a neighbour asked when I was due Grin

LimeLemonBergamot · 04/07/2021 18:19

Newlygranny I was wondering the same thing tbh! I don't whether it meant the body you are born with or giving birth- I think it would have been 'birthing body' if it were the latter maybe?

OP posts: