Female athletes and testosterone

So it is seeing the snide, unfounded and hugely hyperbolic and emotional rhetoric used by posters who cannot provide any counter studies or any logical discussion.

It is very illuminating.

Info is always useful for lurkers 👍

Just trying to be helpful and really lay out a summarised version of the relevant evidence. #BeKind

And encourage cycling mum and any lurkers to ask questions and get links.

@BatmansBat

I have no doubt that cyclingmum50 is fully aware of all the evidence.

@Cyclingmum50

I suggest you read the links on this thread and please ask any women here for more links.

My understanding (based on a substantial amount of research) is as follows.

1. Biological males that have gone through male puberty has a significant advantage over biological women which never goes away, regardless of whether they lower the current testosterone level or not.

2. Testosterone (current) levels provide an additional advantage. Biological females who increase their testosterone levels 4x whilst still below the max threshold which transwoman often fail, increase their performance of more than 8%.

3. testosterone has significantly negative effects on biological females (not naturally occurring at high levels).

So where does that leave us? Well

a) if mediocre male borns identifies as women, just having gone through male puberty is enough to threaten female sports regardless of current testosterone levels.

b) if elite athlete women were allowed to increase their testosterone levels 4x (still below transwomen) they would be able to beat mediocre male borns but at a serious health risk.

c) even if elite female athletes were allowed to take testosterone, they would not be able to beat elite male borns.

Does this make sense? Please let me know if you need any links and women here will provide them.

Yup. Still able to compete in the 100m / 200m.

A quick Google Image search on those athletes was interesting.

And also in the news:

Namibia's Christine Mboma and Beatrice Masilingi have been withdrawn from the 400m race at the Olympics by World Athletics, as testosterone levels are too high.

It’s unclear if they are 46XY or are female with PCOS or similar.

www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/athletics-namibia-contenders-withdrawn-olympic-400m-race-2021-07-02/

That’s a shame. It would encourage sports to take a fair, common sense approach rather than the extremist, gender identity approach.

Hmmm. I suspect just now it’s for convenience, rather than “true inclusion”.

[quote Ekofisk]@Helleofabore

I believe some high profile recent transitioners are currently still competing in their own sex class.[/quote]
This should be publicised in whatever sport they are in. It’s true inclusion, gender diverse people being welcomed into their own sport by their peers. Why haven’t we heard about this in the news?

Unbelievable how the IOC changed it's policy to allow males to compete against women on dodgy as f*ck 'evidence' of 8 invested males. Presented by someone with a huge conflict of interests and not corroborated by proper research and peer review.

8 males overrode fairness and safety for all women.

I just wonder was there anything else to sweeten their cough. What other vested interests could f*ck over fairness and safety for women on the say so of 8 self-interested males.

Separately to this, the reasons that people say the effects of puberty blockers are devastating is because the drugs themselves are so harmful, and also the apparently desired effects of taking them are harmful, as they stunt growth, don't allow bone density to develop, and don't allow the child to develop physically or psychologically to maturity, and leaves children infertile with no adult sexual function.

I believe some high profile recent transitioners are currently still competing in their own sex class.

And that should be the case all round.

The studies have also shown that there is potential to change training to overcome any losses of performance due to transitioning.

I really liked the come back from the Samoan's on people appropriating the 'third gender' culture there. They are very proud of their culture and when you have a 'third gender' person playing with other males in Rugby THAT is a powerful statement. The fact that the country's leader felt they had to state that males should only compete with males and pulled their weightlifting team, should indicate that they should be listened to.

@Helleofabore

I believe some high profile recent transitioners are currently still competing in their own sex class.

Just a thought. If T levels have no impact and it's all a myth, why is there such outrage on teenagers accessing medication ?

The outrage, disgust, the papers you state on the "devastation" it causes ? So how can the medication have so much of an impact (for teenagers) and then be a "red herring" "a myth" for trans women in Sport. Sounds like just looking for a narrative that fits and suits

It appears that you are conflating quite a few different points here and thinking it is a 'zinger' of a 'gotcha'. But it isn't.

Just a thought. If T levels have no impact and it's all a myth, why is there such outrage on teenagers accessing medication ?

Lowering Testosterone levels have been proven to make little difference to the fairness of male competing against females. Males have advantages from exposure from testosterone from birth and it can been seen as being evident from around 6 years old. If you read the studies, you would already know this.

Adults who have had the benefit of testosterone at puberty have significant advantages over females. Hence, there is no way to safely and fairly include males in female only sport

* it does not stop them competing against their own sex at all. That is where the 'myth' lies. There is NO banning of males who identify as women, in sport, just exclusion from female sports categories. After all, would you allow an able bodied person to compete in the Paralympics?

The outrage, disgust, the papers you state on the "devastation" it causes ?

Hyperbole much?

Testosterone does cause "devastation" to female anatomy. It has been well documented by the women from countries that doped them (some without their permission even) the effects such an increase of testosterone on females.

What isn't well discussed or researched is the full impact to females.

Shall we start though with the most obvious. Testosterone often causes atrophy of the female reproductive system within a surprisingly short about of time. This atrophy means that ovaries are removed. It is already a known and documented effect of early hysterectomies that the earlier they are, the rapid increase in the risk of early onset dementia. It is a very large risk and if you have had ovaries removed in your 20s, you could end up with early dementia in your 40s.

Should I post more?

It seems maybe that you might have your own agenda here for allowing males to compete in female categories of sport that you seem to be very unaware of the effects of testosterone on females.

'Sounds like just looking for a narrative that fits and suits' seems like projection to me.

Cyclingmum50

I stated that simply talking about testosterone is a red herring, because it totally ignores the fact that a transwoman would have gone through male puberty and would therefore have benefited from all the physiological advantages which that brings.
How do you know that most transwomen's T levels are below 2? Can you link to any evidence to prove that?

why is there such outrage on teenagers accessing medication ?

As the NICE evidence review has determined, there is limited evidence for the effectiveness and safety of gender-affirming hormones in children and adolescents with gender dysphoria.

Setting children off onto a lifetime of medicalisation with no evidence of long term safety and effectiveness should be concerning?

Because of medication, most trans women T levels are usually below 2.

Although it’s reported that Telfer missed the US Trials due to failing to meet the 5 nmol/l limit?

10nmls/litre is a myth. Every sport governing body has their own policy so, for example, World governing bodies of Athletics & Cycling policy set the requirement to lower levels, ie 5nmls/l. Because of medication, most trans women T levels are usually below 2.

Just a thought. If T levels have no impact and it's all a myth, why is there such outrage on teenagers accessing medication ? The outrage, disgust, the papers you state on the "devastation" it causes ? So how can the medication have so much of an impact (for teenagers) and then be a "red herring" "a myth" for trans women in Sport. Sounds like just looking for a narrative that fits and suits

So, you could say 12 times in a year, for a day or two, the males have to temporarily have a testosterone level of 10nm/L.

If a trans woman knows in advance of testosterone testing, how can that ever work fairly? I though the whole point of out of competition testing was to avoid gaming the system?

For instance, the FA warns footballers that they can be drug tested at any time (after a match, at training, at home etc) without prior notice.

The only personal experience I’ve had of testing is at major competitions (DC competed at a high level), but we spent hours scrutinising the WADA list to ensure all medications were compliant and ensuring that asthma inhalers were covered by a TUE.

OK, let us look at testosterone and the effect it has on sporting performance. Back in 1981, I had very low T levels (around the limit the IOC set for female athletes) but couldn't use any medication because I competed in cycle racing, more specifically time trials (individual riders racing at a set distance against the clock, in my case 10 and 25 miles). On one course, I set a personal best (I didn't win) of 21m 55s, which is still around 20s faster than the current women's course record set by a 2016 Rio Olympic gold medal winner.
Testosterone levels are a red herring, often used by people who wish to ignore all the physiological benefits gained by a male who goes through puberty.

These males might then only suppress their natural male levels to slightly lower male levels for just several days in the year preceding the competitions.

I don't know what dose of testosterone doctors (who seem to be ignoring the hippocratic oath) prescribe women/girls who identify as male.

I have to post this from J. Harper's 'evidence'. A few people on the internet, self reporting and maybe verification, if it was possible. 8 people, Harper being one of them. Could it be any more dodgy?

Methods
Race times from eight transgender women runners were collected over a period of seven years and, when possible, verified. The collection process consisted of seeking out female transgender distance runners, mostly online, and then asking them to submit race times. Even in 2014 few people are open about being transgender, so the submission of race times represented a large leap of faith for the participants. When possible, race times were then verified using online services listing race results. For six of the eight runners, online checking made it possible to verify approximately half of the submitted times. Two of the subjects, runners three and four, would only participate anonymously, creating an ethical dilemma over the use of their times, versus respect their privacy.

you can download the pdf for free. button on top right of page.

cgscholar.com/bookstore/works/race-times-for-transgender-athletes