Female athletes and testosterone

Oh York has a view. The last time it was posted about on a different thread, all the posts were deleted. Let’s try again.

road.cc/content/news/269035-idea-transgender-people-are-going-take-over-womens-sport-absolutely-ridiculous

Miller/York AFAIK is keeping their head down and has been out of the public eye pretty much since transitioning.

I've not heard if they have s view on the sports issues.

There are plenty more vocal people to focus on IMO

[quote andyoldlabour]BatmansBat

Yes, there was Scottish Tour de France rider Philippa York, who competed at a very high standard in the 1980's, winning the Mountains in the TdF in 1984 and the Mountains in the Giro in 1987, plus various stage races.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippa_York[/quote]
Will the renamed York admit to being 'King of the Mountains' as that was won by Robert Millar? No women in those races, hence only 'King'.

Well, at least competing against their own sex, they weren't a motorbike in a bicycle race. It was like for like.

NiceGerbil

I know, it was a horrible situation for them, particularly the after effects, totally ruined their lives.

I think to be clear they were doped by their trainers etc and this was supported by the state.

If they knew, there wasn't anything they could do about it.

The following article details the state sponsored doping taking place in Eastern Bloc countries in the 60's and 70's. Some of the women athletes were taking twice the dose of testosterone that the men were on and had been doping since mid teens.

academic.oup.com/clinchem/article/43/7/1262/5640958

BatmansBat

Yes, there was Scottish Tour de France rider Philippa York, who competed at a very high standard in the 1980's, winning the Mountains in the TdF in 1984 and the Mountains in the Giro in 1987, plus various stage races.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippa_York

I am still baffled at my understanding that transwomen has a higher testosterone level than the women who were doped during the Eastern European doping years. Wow!!

Can you imagine if a male who actually was good started to identify as a woman?

Out of interest, has anyone come across a male who realised that they were a transwoman after actually being successful as a male? Apart from Caitlin Jenner who suggests that transwomen shouldn’t participate in women’s sports?

Yes you’re right - I should have just said the regulations don’t apply to female athletes with hyperandrogenism.

The regulations don’t apply to female athletes with hyperandrogenism as these women would still have testosterone levels below 5 nmol/l.

It's not that these women are unaffected by the regulations because their T level is lower than 5nmol, it's that they aren't affected because they are female and this regulation only applies to males. Specifically 46XY DSDs where there is testes and an androgen response. A female (XX) athlete's testosterone could be higher than 5 and they'd not be regulated, because they are female (in reality, it's extremely unlikely a female athlete would ever have naturally occurring testosterone higher than 5 anyway).

They went away and did some (bad) science and could only prove there was an advantage in those middle distance events. So CAS ruled on that basis.
Tucker was quite aghast about had bad their research was

This isn't quite correct.

They (IOC/WA) were asked to prove there was an advantage. They decided to focus on the 400 &800m events as that is where the unfair advantages of having testes, testosterone and an androgen response causing virilisation during male puberty, is greatest. They showed that.

It's not that they couldn't show there was a male advantage in the other events - there is. In fact, there is a male advantage in every athletics event but the extent of this varies by the event as different events use different attributes. They focused on where the advantage is most stark (limited time and focus). They may look at others soon, and probably will now people who have the male sex advantage are now using their male sex advantage in other events where there is no restriction on testosterone.

PennineSpring

"They went away and did some (bad) science and could only prove there was an advantage in those middle distance events. So CAS ruled on that basis.
Tucker was quite aghast about had bad their research was."

If I was a cynical person, then I would be tempted to think that the decisions made by both the IOC (Harper influenced them) and World Athletics were a deliberate compromise, instead of a science backed decision.
It is obvious to most sensible people, that if you bar an athlete from three events because of their Testosterone levels/intersex condition then they should be barred from the female category altogether.
Anyone who has XY chromosomes and has gone through male puberty should never be allowed to compete in the female category.

And what evidence do you ‘choose’ to follow that makes you believe otherwise
Cyclingmum50?

And do you have a vested interest in allowing a male to participate in female sporting categories? If so, perhaps you would have access to the studies that we don’t.

So please do link them up as there is a huge readership of these threads and people are here to see the evidence.

Thank you. Yes I'm fully aware of the "evidence"that you choose to follow and refer to.

BTW I do hate the locutions 'top surgery' and 'bottom surgery'. Makes it sound like you're buying a bikini.

Cailleach1

Sorry!

Tone is hard with writing and there are some really strange ideas about!

The recent case of the trans man footballer is interesting...

Kumi Yokoyama has come out as a man but is putting off taking testosterone until their football career (in women's football) is over.

So we have a situation where, if you complain about TW in women's sports you are denying them their human rights and very existence. But at the same time, it is fine for a person who says they are a man to compete in female sporting events. If trans men are actually men, why is this person allowed to compete in the women's team at all? It's almost as if nobody actually believes that KY is a man.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/06/20/kumi-yokoyama-comes-out-transgender-man-japan-football/

“I never saw myself as a girl, so I hated puberty. When I reached adulthood, I thought I’d maybe play soccer for another one or two years, so after that season ended I had my breasts removed,” they explained.

“Normally you can’t have it unless you’re receiving hormones, but my doctor understood my situation. I would have been caught by doping tests if I was on hormones, so I just had the top surgery.”

I think you’re right - still, I took the opportunity for a good rant (I’m quite cross about all this, if there was any doubt )

I could be wrong, it is hard to tell sometimes!

I’ve obviously spent far too long on Twitter where opinions like that are presented as true fact and peppered with the usual slurs aimed at anyone who disagrees

The whole thing is wrong as regards sports. Something will need to change. At the moment is there anything to stop a man identifying as a woman and competing in women's sports.

I thought that post was someone being sarcastic, not a real opinion.

Sport is divided into sex categories to allow fair competition between biological females in one class and biological males in another class.

Trans women are biological males, and no chanting of the “TWAW” mantra will ever change biological reality.

It’s really offensive that mediocre males with all the benefits of male puberty can identify into female sport and deny biological women their rightful places, medals and records.

It would be a logical conclusion. If the IOC are now saying that testosterone would gives no unfair advantage in certain races, there would be no reason to disqualify women for doping with testosterone.

It is just how stupidly bock*cks the whole thing is. Literally.