Female athletes and testosterone

Oh absolutely! Anyone with eyes knows the biological difference between men and women.

It is the current BC policy, but still a red herring when undergoing male puberty creates physiological advantages that aren’t lost by lowering testosterone levels.

Let’s hope the public outcry over Laurel Hubbard has cleared some of the gender woo at BC. An organisation tainted with charges of sexism, bullying and doping doesn’t want another public scandal and more charges of sexism from female athletes.

From the IAAF briefing paper, females normally have a circulating testosterone level of 0.12 to 1.79 nmol/L, although women with PCOS could have circulating testosterone as high as 4.8 nmol/L. Therefore, the only female athletes competing with levels above 5 nmol/L would be intersex/DSD athletes, doped athletes, and athletes with adrenal or ovarian tumours.

I read that as: if a female athlete records a high level of testosterone, and a DSD or tumours are ruled out as causes, then doping would be suspected (testosterone being a banned substance).

www.worldathletics.org/download/download?filename=b6f96abb-91fb-40c1-8fbb-82375efa75f7.pdf&urlslug=Explanatory%20Notes%3A%20IAAF%20Eligibility%20Regulations%20for%20the%20Female%20Classification

I should be grateful for some help understanding how we arrive at the rules around testosterone levels in women.

My understanding is that it is males with DSDs (who want to compete in the women’s competition) who have to have low testosterone levels but that women (whether or not they have DSDs) can have any any testosterone level. However, from this thread there seems to be some suggestion that in fact the testosterone limits for women are the same as for males wanting to compete as women, it is just that women’s levels never go above 5 (except in in some possible cases where the high level would be a symptom of serious illness and therefore would not be an elite athlete). I want to begin challenging reporting on this (saw it on the BBC today) but want to be crystal clear on what the rules are for women’s testosterone levels and how we can arrive at the statement that women (no functioning Y chromosome) can compete with testosterone at any levels, therefore if an athlete is deemed to have too high levels of testosterone to compete then they must necessarily be male (if that is true).

British Cycling’s policy is that the athlete’s total testosterone level in serum must remain below 5 nmol/L throughout the period of desired eligibility to compete in the female category.

Since you have to comply with BC regulations to be eligible to gain a place on Team GB, then cyclists (same as track and field athletes) would need to comply with this limit rather than the higher IOC limit?

Would you mind sharing with us the evidence that you’re using to support the claim that male bodied people can fairly compete in women’s sport? I am very interested in this topic, and if there’s evidence out there that I’ve missed, I’d like to see it. Particularly the piece about transwomen’s T levels usually being under 2, which is certainly news to me, as from my understanding, the origin of these IoC rules was to enable male bodied trans athletes not to have to completely obliterate their T levels, as that makes them quite unwell and certainly not able to maintain the necessary training volume.

This evidence you’re referring to does exist, doesn’t it?

I am sure it is NOT going to be Harper’s 8 person self reported study

Indeed, Harper's review own published this year corroborates Hilton's and basically obsoletes that - there is a mass of evidence that lowering testosterone does not eliminate the benefits of a male puberty.

Which is why Harper was reduced to arguing on the radio the other day that men with lowered testosterone don't have "too much" of an advantage.

The argument that was mustered was that after lowering testosterone, their average performance may be closer to female average than to male average, so they should compete in the female category. (Except maybe weightlifting, was conceded.) Eliminating half the advantage should be the goal was now the claim.

Although it's far from clear that half the advantage is eliminated for most sports, and having half the male advantage is still HUGE at competitive level.

(And note that we're only talking average performance reductions here - for a lot of individuals there is hardly any performance loss, according to the studies! Basically you'd be in a situation of selecting for males who respond best to testosterone suppression.)

Harper is somewhat out-of-depth here, being a scientist. You're going to need a philosopher of bullshit to make these arguments. Not sure if there are any currently available - our most well-known seems to have gone into hiding.

It's such s shame.

RM was amazing. Our family always watched the tour. Seeing RM in action was incredible.

I feel quite upset tbh. A legend of my childhood. Transitioning- fair enough. Saying that stuff. Upsetting TBH.

[quote PennineSpring]Oh York has a view. The last time it was posted about on a different thread, all the posts were deleted. Let’s try again.

road.cc/content/news/269035-idea-transgender-people-are-going-take-over-womens-sport-absolutely-ridiculous[/quote]
How delusional.

'She believes that being from a country that can afford to sponsor your training is “way more advantageous than your gender.”'

Pretty much every quote of Millar in that article is complete nonsense.

And the fact they are essentially saying that men with lower testosterone around the world are.. women?

That's really insulting to both men and women.

It's not about anything scientific.

It never was.

The IOC had a starting point of we want to let transwomen compete with women. What rules shall we use?

I mean it's obvious.

The upper limit of testosterone is within normal for men.

The concept that testosterone is the only difference is obvious nonsense.

The fact that for those with DSDS the testosterone allowed is half that of transwomen. Why???!!! Logically it should be the same as for transwomen, obviously. What is the rationale for this?

There are more..

Well. I look forward to the research that is being used to prove that males who lower their testosterone eliminate the benefits of a male purberty so they can compete with females.

I am sure it is NOT going to be Harper’s 8 person self reported study and it must be a very convincing one. So, I will wait for cyclingmum’s links. ….

Sorry, somehow managed to send the above post twice?

This athlete who has declared that they have always suffered from gender dysphoria , was obviously able to ignore it , as they have admitted taking performance enhancing extra testosterone during their competitive career.

The guys who are the best climbers are usually so wiry. I see York was a wiry one too. Pogacar was not just the Maillot jaune yesterday, but also the 'meilleur jeune'. He was wearing the white jersey (best under 21, I think) as well as the yellow jersey. A wiry looking kid.

Wout Poels got to wear the polka dot. Sam Bennett not in it this year!

Yes, Le Tour is on in my house too. And no women are competing in it, irrespective of what any of these guys might claim in a few years time. They'd whinge over any unfairness for themselves, so can bog off if they try to say it is ok for women to have males unfairly competing against them.
As they say, that would be a motorcycle in a bicycle race.

This athlete who has declared that they have always suffered from gender dysphoria , was obviously able to ignore it , as they have admitted taking performance enhancing extra testosterone during their competitive career.

Because words mean what you want them to mean

How is York menopausal?

Watch some of the other cycling as well. Will keep an eye out.

OMG, the gall of that. York (or Millar as then) threw their toys out of the pram and was peeved when they lost a stage in the Vuelta because the Spaniards worked together. They won it fair and square body wise, blokes against blokes. However, York (or Millar as was) was so peeved and such a sore loser that they said they'd never return to Spain and it was called the 'stolen vuelta'.

And now they think a figurative motorbike is fair in a race against a bicycle. What a bleed*n' hypocrite.

It is a shame because York is taken seriously in sport due to their outstanding career.

I saw on Twitter that they’re part of British Cycling’s new Diversity Panel as was a chap from Stonewall. An appointment like that should be a really positive statement of inclusivity for a sporting organisation but I worry it’s actually a death knell for sex based women’s cycling.

York pops up on ITV4 cycling coverage as a talking head regularly.

Oh that's such a shame

Transitioning changes the way you think
York is menopausal
It's harder for a transwoman than a (c*s) woman

I have always loved the tour and am old enough to remember York competing.