Female athletes and testosterone

This thread is about the Olympics though.

Sure, but athletes selected for the Olympics do so through their own sporting bodies (such as World Athletics) which may or may not have the same testosterone restrictions as the IOC.

It’s all a mess, and still ignores the fact that athletes that have undergone male puberty retain physiological advantages over female athletes, regardless of testosterone levels.

XX and XY separate is the only fair way. The physiological differences are way too complex to unpick otherwise. With a possible exception for CAIS individuals.

This thread is about the Olympics though.

We don't need a rule based on rigorous scientific research.

We need males to compete with the men. Like was always how it worked.

What is the point of trying to assess the untold number of differences in our... Everything.

We don't even know how plenty of things work anyway so it would be impossible.

Take I dunno. Basketball. Height is a major advantage. Women are on average shorter than men. So. Decide a height that has a bit of overlap with men as a limit? Then bar any women over that height?

Same with hurdles?

Cycling, men have on average a larger lung capacity. Same approach.

And on and on and on.

Transwomen have to be below 10 nm/l.
Those with DSDS have to be below 5.

That’s not the case for athletics.

World Athletics require trans women to be below 5 nmol/l - athletes can’t compete at international level or qualify for the Olympics if they don’t meet this requirement.

The issue is that different sporting bodies have different thresholds.

What is needed is rules based on rigorous scientific research (and not on an undergrad paper where n=8 non elite athletes).

Apart from showjumping etc obv!

Oh but SCIENCE.

but not at all.

Getting it that that low for a male would presumably mean massive impact. That's not something to encourage.

The process was started with the aim, how can we let some transwomen in and make it look like we've done it fairly.

It can't be fair. Testosterone is far from being the only difference between men and women when it comes to sport.

Mixed sex sport is ridiculous. And that's the end of that.

As does the fact that 10nm/l is just within the NORMAL range for men. And what 3 or 4 times normal for women.

Normal level for a woman is about 0.5. The upper end of "normal" is 1.8 (roughly) and that's pretty unusual, so 10 is an insanely high level to put the limit at.

Do yes it is very unfair that those with DSDs who were taken for female at birth but have internal testicles, have to have half the level of those male at birth whose balls are on the outside.

Ekofisk it's not fair because at the Olympics.

Transwomen have to be below 10 nm/l.
Those with DSDS have to be below 5.

Why the difference? What possible logical reason for it? There isn't one.

The total inconsistency shouts in neon lights that it's all nonsense.

As does the fact that 10nm/l is just within the NORMAL range for men. And what 3 or 4 times normal for women.

If as they seem to believe that the ONLY difference between men and women when it comes to sport is testosterone. Then transwomen would surely need to be in the normal range for women. (They could check what that is for female professional sportspeople they may have a different normal range I don't know).

But yes to your last para But neither of these categories of athletes has any business being in a race with women.

If testosterone testing is self reported and not done as out-of-competition testing then that’s an absolute farce.

I wonder if any PP on this thread would care to share their experience?

Athletes with DSDs like Caster Semenya and the Namibian athletes have to keep their levels down to 5 nanomoles per liter. This of course is unfair, too.

Why, if these individuals can utilise their elevated testosterone levels for advantage against XX females, is this unfair?

The rules are that transgender women only need to reduce their testosterone levels to 10 nanomoles per liter, and get checked once a month for a year beforehand. It is a self reporting system, so they can basically keep their hormone levels as high as they want most of the month and reduce them at reporting time. It is actually very difficult for them to get down to a guaranteed 10 nanomoles per liter, contrary to what cycling mom said, and even if they got down to 2 nanomoles, that is still on the high side for women.
Athletes with DSDs like Caster Semenya and the Namibian athletes have to keep their levels down to 5 nanomoles per liter. This of course is unfair, too.
But neither of these categories of athletes has any business being in a race with women.

Thanks pear and aparallaxia

Not pays, means. Autocorrect.

So the b) and c) pays mean that none of these regulations could apply to anyone who was biologically female.

See the complete list on Wikipedia's page about DSDs.

It should be on their website though their other policies are and handbook which I had a quick look through.

It might be that the IWF just deferred to the IOC policy?

www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1050420/iwf-medical-committee-member-gives-presentation-on-transgender-inclusion

The IWF site I can't find any info.

British weightlifting currently you need to have testosterone within the normal range for your identity. Or had testicles removed.

MUCH harsher than IOC.

It says they are adopting IOC approach and think say IWF are as well.

Lack of info on IWF site is odd but it's a poor site I may have missed it.

It’s the UCI policy as well.

www.uci.org/inside-uci/press-releases/the-uci-updates-and-clarifies-its-regulations-on-transgender-athlete-participation

The pertinent one is weightlifting re Olympics.

IF they are doing testosterone event by event (a complicated time consuming and peculiar way to go about it) then I'd have thought weightlifting, and things like shot putt would be first on the list for different levels...

I'll maybe look at the
...
Global weightlifting site.

'Since you have to comply with BC regulations to be eligible to gain a place on Team GB, then cyclists (same as track and field athletes) would need to comply with this limit rather than the higher IOC limit?'

Who the fuck knows!

I can't imagine any country handing over an advantage like that to other countries tbh.

Sorry, should re-word: ones that only males can have

Thanks Pear - think will need to go away and actually read them. Are all those DSDs only ones that males can have?