Employee using pronouns. Help!

FWIW the fictional Jane may be non-binary and prefer they/them as pronouns.

Jane doesn't get to police other people's language though does she.

Except it wasn’t nonsense because as explained Jane wasn’t present. Most of the time you can correctly assume which pronouns to use in somebody’s absence, and if you make a mistake you just correct yourself. People have always done this. It isn’t a big deal.

On the other hand suggesting that everyone should actively declare a gender is a big deal and is the opposite of inclusive.

is nonsense.

What is nonsense is your absolute determination to completely miss the point. It does seem to be a feature of those who support gender ideology. Well it has to be doesn't it. It doesn't work otherwise.

For Jane, who is not there, I am speaking about her, I can easily guess what Jane's pronouns are. She didn't need to tell me. Because she has a female name. Easy innit.

So you admit now that it is necessary for 'grown-ups' to use pronouns in emails sometimes? I'm glad we've cleared that up.

FWIW the fictional Jane may be non-binary and prefer they/them as pronouns.

Control freakery

Although yes merrymouse that is a fair point too.

We have a scheme at my work where we get to demonstrate what fantastic allies we are for various different groups of people. In order to be an ally, you read a pledge, you sign to say you support the pledge and then you get a badge to add onto your email signature. Some of these badges include hyper links like 'why pronouns matter' just in case the recipient is unsure. You can collect badges like a toddler loading up their sticker chart until your email looks like the fridge of a preschooler. These are important matters and we're encouraged to do our bit to make our workplace inclusive.

Alas I have no badges because I'm not into virtue signalling meaningless wokery. Fortunately when I raised this with the new big boss and they concur that it is nonsense, so the brightly coloured badges of bullshit will be disappearing.

so you have a job where you need to divulge lots of information information about Jane’s health, but the only way you could establish that Jane might not wish to be referred to as ‘she’ is an email sign off

My example was simply to illustrate that the previous poster's comment:

Theres no need to use pronouns in emails because we don't tend to use them to address people directly using them anymore. Apart from at school. The usage of she / her / he / him in every day language is not necessary information to give in an email

is nonsense.

Ahh, so I'm speaking to John directly about Jane. I didn't need to use a pronoun for John as I'm speaking to him directly. I can call him John and I don't need to address him as Mr / him / he. John thus has no need to tell me his pronouns. Although it's clear what they are. As John has a male name. Therefore when talking about him (as I am to you) I can use male pronouns.

For Jane, who is not there, I am speaking about her, I can easily guess what Jane's pronouns are. She didn't need to tell me. Because she has a female name. Easy innit.

Does anyone need a guide to use the correct pronouns in English for a woman? And to make a special thing about it?

I think I was been way too unassuming in my life. That is Cailleach, with a capital letter C, then a small xyzzy. To top it off the first number of the decimal system (or maybe the second if 0 counts, sic). ad nauseam.

I’m torn on this one, if it’s a religious, traditional company where this won’t be welcomed then I would be worried about alienating clients.

The whole thing is stupid anyway unless she has a unisex name like Sam or Alex, then I can see a usefulness in it but if she’s got a very female name anyway then I’d probably think it was a bit odd because obviously Jennifer or Susan will be she/her but it doesn’t mean they were born female, they could’ve changed their name.

“Hi John

I spoke to Jane today about Jane's absence. Jane told me Jane had seen Jane's doctor, and Jane had been prescribed some medication. Jane will call with an update next Tuesday after Jane has had Jane's follow-up appointment with Jane's doctor. Jane can't give an exact time as Jane's medication makes Jane drowsy and Jane wants to call when Jane feels up to it.

Kind regards

Jill”

So you have a job where you need to divulge lots of information information about Jane’s health, but the only way you could establish that Jane might not wish to be referred to as ‘she’ is an email sign off?

That would be very odd, and perhaps call into question your professional abilities.

'Hi John

I spoke to Jane today about Jane's absence. Jane told me Jane had seen Jane's doctor, and Jane had been prescribed some medication. Jane will call with an update next Tuesday after Jane has had Jane's follow-up appointment with Jane's doctor. Jane can't give an exact time as Jane's medication makes Jane drowsy and Jane wants to call when Jane feels up to it.

Kind regards

Jill

Yes, that's exactly how I felt in a meeting with this pronoun-displaying woman today, it was a microaggression

It really is a micro agression.

Yes, that's exactly how I felt in a meeting with this pronoun-displaying woman today, it was a microaggression. She was asserting her political views in a meeting that had absolutely nothing to do with gender identity, and this attitude spilled over as she proceeded to try to tell other more experienced people what they should and shouldn't be doing (no one was saying or doing anything in the least bit offensive, but she was ever so helpfully pre-empting us, because how could we with all our life experience possibly have her sage wisdom). What a prat.

Either you didn't read my post properly, or you're trying to backtrack because you've realised that your assertion that no one uses pronouns in everyday speech, except at school, was ridiculous.

I'm talking about refering to people directly. The whole op is about using pronouns in emails. Theres no need to use pronouns in emails because we don't tend to use them to address people directly using them anymore. Apart from at school. The usage of she / her / he / him in every day language is not necessary information to give in an email. Because when I use those terms I'm talking about the person not to the person. So it hardly matters. And the policing of my language in a company email, when the person is not even there, is not welcome or required. This follows on from your point about using Miss / Mrs Smith. People don't speak like this anymore. Apart from at school.

Now how far have you got with your counting?

Commonly used stateside also as a greeting to customers in fast food outlets and shops. There’s a whole slew of videos on YouTube where self-identified transwomen, presenting as men, have been cheerily greeted as ‘Sir’ and have gone nuclear-aggressive at the minimum wage workers who greeted them.

Her pronouns in an email context would normally be “you”.

As it’s unnecessarily gendered and demanding, is a microaggression at the very least. Especially if it’s just her doing the bollocks.

At our work place we have a standardised signature that is auto generated.
No one is allowed to alter it......

My fellow North of Englanders will most likely be smiling at the thought of Boyes (a shop) and the tannoy announcements asking for Mrs Smith to come to the checkout.

My work email is fully generated automatically it is

Afternoon Toffee
Bottle Washer *
Bottles.com

No deviation. Corporate, official looking but doesn't tell anyone much.

• Alas I am not even chief bottle washer.

"cis female" is a political statement - I think it is entirely appropriate to ask employees not to include their political viewpoints in a corporate email signature. How one would go about doing that is another thing. I would also suggest a company template.

You said: 'They really aren't. Apart from at school. Grown ups tend to use actual names.'

Either you didn't read my post properly, or you're trying to backtrack because you've realised that your assertion that no one uses pronouns in everyday speech, except at school, was ridiculous.

This is an interesting situation OP, I hope your friend has found the best way to handle it, lots of good advice here I think.

As a new team member it's quite a strange thing to do, when you're new you tend to follow the rules or templates set out for you, as you find your way and settle into the role, particularly as an external person she has made a very personal and political statement, in a sort of 'marking territory' way. Anyone who has researched the company before applying and securing the position would have an understanding of the clients it serves and whether it might be met negatively.

If I were your friend I would be a bit worried about this employee not being sensitive to this and not being self-aware enough to see how this could impact the people she is working with. I hope he doesn't come to regret his selection and the employee is an easy fit into the existing team.

I would prefer having a quiet word before a company-wide email reminder is sent out. It might be that she is just not that sensitive and hasn't thought it through. An all-employee email in a small team especially will create gossip as everyone will know who it refers to and she is new.