Employee using pronouns. Help!

And likewise I'd pity this young graduate who is trying to prove herself in the world of work but is inadvertently putting herself at a disadvantage in this sexist world because at Uni she was conditioned to think that it is important to mention to clients that she is female and doesn't realise that doing so before they've got to know her work will affect the way they treat her in this sexist world we live in.

Over the years I've been in work I've seen plenty of references to someone's pronoun preferences in their email sig. In the past it was often "Jo Blogs (Mrs)" or "Sing Ho Chun (Mr)" type of thing. I can't really get that excited about it either way

I think my lesbian vicar friend would disagree with you.

I see homophobia as taking offence at what other consenting adults choose to do in private. I don't see how you can be so riled about other people's sex lives without also being offended, but I'm open to people seeing it differently.

Basically I guess the point is that if people announced their religion on an email, I'd believe that they are more likely to be homophobic, anti-female choice in terms of abortion and otherwise judgemental of others. Not because I think that all religious people have those views but to feel the need to announce it when we've probably not even met is quite a political statement which suggest that these things are more likely. Just as if I announced I was an agender, atheist, labour voter in an email - people would assume I'm announcing that for some reason. Otherwise why not also add on that my favourite drink is red wine, I prefer red bush tea to PG tips and support Arsenal?

I don’t really understand the link between homophobia and being offended, in my head they are two different things

Im obviously being a bit too literal

Let's cut the new employee some slack and remember she's probably just spent 3 years or more among the superwoke and thinks this is routinely done everywhere. She is just launched into her first professional post and will need mentoring, which it seems OP's friend is doing.

All she needs to hear is, "Not like that," which will be a familiar phrase, I'm sure. Perhaps she could be made aware that asking people for their pronouns is potentially outing and distressing for those who might still be questioning or unsure and reluctant to draw attention to themselves. Posting her own pronouns could be problematic or triggering for such colleagues as it implies that everyone might be required to do the same.

She just needs to be kind and inclusive and follow corporate policy. Other jobs are available if she feels the company she joined is not woke or zealous enough for her, after all

That's something of a non-sequitur. It's possible to be Christian and not homophobic. There are plenty of gay Christians out there!

It's really not. There are, of course, plenty of nonhomophobic Christians, whether they are gay or not. But you are more likely to be homophobic if you're Christian so I don' thin it makes sense, at all, to say that Christians don't easily feel offended. In my experience they do.

I've been thinking about this some more and I think the 'emphasising I'm a woman' aspect is a bit of a red herring. It's not untrue - in the current sexist climate it's not advantageous for a woman to draw attention to her sex. However, if the workplace became less sexist, pronouns would still be a problem, because they're compelled speech. It's not an act of self-expression (as other questionably professional signature content might be), it's a demand for others to change how they speak, and more importantly, how they perceive.

You could say 'you're already limited in how you speak at work' - but this goes a step further. You're not prevented from perceiving your boss as a fuckwit, you'd just usually not express that perception. Under gender ideology, though, you are prevented from perceiving him as a man, if he doesn't think he is one. Pronouns and other basic parts of speech in a language are closer to your perceptions than secondary impressions like 'fuckwit'. The whole thing is an attempt to force perceptual change via compelled language.

Why though?
I'm genuinely not meaning to be goady.
When first new to this topic on here I was more "OMFG, can you not tell I'm a woman?!" and take offence.
Now though, from reading both sides over the years, I can see why pronouns are important.
Not for me, but for others.
Why should I deny the right for trans people to be seen too, whether a trans woman or a trans man?
(Not aimed at you in particular, just generally thinking out loud)

I think it would be rude to ask a trans person who was clearly presenting as female for their preferred pronouns.

If you ask for pronouns you force many people to either lie about or reveal a gender identity.

personally I have a problem with the idea that pronouns enable any insight into somebody’s innate identity. It’s just plain sexist.

We also know that women are disadvantaged at work when sex and gender are emphasised.

I think all these points have already been covered on this thread.

Minezatea

That's something of a non-sequitur. It's possible to be Christian and not homophobic. There are plenty of gay Christians out there!

My industry is slowly being taken over by stealth by the woke pronoun brigade.

1. 'We have a corporate style, this is it.

If there is any further conversation

His clients are mostly all from one strict religious community (that he also belongs to)

We are culturally sensitive to our customers, this could cause distress to them because they have strict rules and these are based on sex not gender.

This can be added to depending on the group eg if it is orthodox Jewish a woman might feel obliged to have children to 'replace the 5 million', if it is Plymouth Brethren, then I have not got a clue.

If it is a minority that use a different language. you can add in that in whatever language gendered pronouns work differently. eg in French a teacher is Le professeur regardless of the sex of the teacher.

I have mine on my Instagram because I know my ex stalks me and it kills him that mine are actually my real pronouns. It’s not always an inclusive thing. Mines my bit of revenge for the hell he put me through. If he’s gonna look it’s gonna hurt.

I'm not sure what's so difficult about that stance. I'm coming from the same stance as I would assume the likes of Douglas Murray, Rod Liddle or Julia Hartley-Brewer do.

Ah ok, thanks. I would call that gender critical as an umbrella term but I understand why you don't.

@OfNobody

So she is writing her name the then in brackets adding like this

Anna smith ( she/her)

Like that?

I hate the whole pronoun business, but I wouldn't stop someone from adding them, as long as they don't pressure me to do so.

Sometimes, names can be ambiguous though, especially if they aren't part of the community/culture/country that you are used to, and sometimes people get frustrated at being addressed incorrectly - I am female, a woman, have a female name etc bit I still got emails and letters addressed to Mr xxx which really annoyed me.

No one has yet made the point that a large majority of people are ok with being called she/her or he/him without having to announce it to the world. If someone asked me my preferred pronoun I would be massively offended

Why though?
I'm genuinely not meaning to be goady.
When first new to this topic on here I was more "OMFG, can you not tell I'm a woman?!" and take offence.
Now though, from reading both sides over the years, I can see why pronouns are important.
Not for me, but for others.
Why should I deny the right for trans people to be seen too, whether a trans woman or a trans man?
(Not aimed at you in particular, just generally thinking out loud)

Outhere I know you said this midway in the thread, but I just want to applaud you for this lovely alliteration. Made my day.

"...brightly coloured badges of bullshit"

It makes it easier for others to follow suit if they are GNC or non binary if they see others doing it. Or she has a slightly ambiguous name. Or a deep voice. I worked with a woman I had never met with a unisex name, we only ever used email or IM - it was quite a while before I found out she was female if she had her pronouns listed I would have known straight away how to refer to her when referring to her in her absence.
@StMarysKettle and would it have made any difference to how you interacted? If it didn't then why have pronouns? If it did then you are showing bias based on a person's sex.

No one has yet made the point that a large majority of people are ok with being called she/her or he/him without having to announce it to the world. If someone asked me my preferred pronoun I would be massively offended, but that probably makes me a transphobe.