Is this a woman lead movement?

I'm genuinely interested in why there is a sense that trans people are subjugating cis women?

What is trans? What is Cis? I can think of at least two local politicians who present as their birth sex but claim trans status to attack women with the full force of male privilege.

Definitions used by Stonewall include anyone who is uncomfortable with gender expectations (all feminists?) and people who occasionally like to cross dress.

You can’t protect the rights of any group that you can’t define.

I can see why, if you are 29 and trying to get ahead in a profession dominated by men, the idea that pregnancy/menstruation/menopause etc. could happen to anyone is attractive.

Before the campaign for self ID (back in the 00s and early 10s) I think most contentious debate on this board was about whether feminism helped women.

There is not unanimous agreement in whether e.g. single sex education helps or hinders women.

I think this is an ongoing debate that will never be resolved. However, we can’t even have the debate in the first place if we don’t have language to describe women.

@Miskirsky If you don't understand, start with sport.

There are some really interesting responses on this thread.

Basically the dynamic of any group which seeks to exploit women (or indeed any class, tbh, on a wider scale) will need to have women in positions of authority as enforcers.

FloralBunting you have really made me think about how persecution and power works in general.

It also made me think of that phrase "when the axe came into the forest, the trees all said, at least the handle is one of us".

I can't see how the major religions have in general, overall, been beneficial for women, at all.

I don't know why you believe this?

'Possibly but the consequences of supporting a baby with no partner or social welfare would be difficult.'

Women and girls were always raped though and pregnancy resulted.

There are countries that
See this as a crime- sex before marriage
Marry the victim to the rapist to make it ok
Force children to give birth at high risk to them, when they are pregnant due to sexual abuse

Etc etc

The mainstream religions have done fuck all for women and girls except justify our treatment. And many are really oppressive for men as well.

Not buying it at all.

I can't understand why you feel the dominant religions have been beneficial for women at all.

Or why you see women enforcing harmful things against other women, to be an ally to men

Is any different from women with this issue enforcing harmful things against other women, to be an ally to men....

'I am pointing out that some religions had something to offer everyone including women.'

Which religions are you thinking of?

In 2020

Christianity 31.11%
Islam 24.90%

The four largest branches of Christianity are the Catholic Church (1.3 billion/50.1%), Protestantism (920 million/36.7%), the Eastern Orthodox Church (230 million), and the Oriental Orthodox churches (62 million).

'
Over half of all estimated unsafe abortions globally were in Asia, most of them in south and central Asia. (2)
3 out of 4 abortions that occurred in Africa and Latin America were unsafe.(2)
The risk of dying from an unsafe abortion was the highest in Africa.(2)
Each year between 4.7% – 13.2% of maternal deaths can be attributed to unsafe abortion (3).
Estimates from 2010 to 2014 showed that around 45% of all abortions were unsafe. Almost all of these unsafe abortions took place in developing countries (2)
Around 7 million women are admitted to hospitals every year in developing countries, as a result of unsafe abortion (4).'

She sought to benefit from women's suffering, but she didn't really concern herself with how to alleviate it.

Incidentally that's why I can't watch the adaptation. Without the postscript making the point that women's lives and stories matter and are dismissed and forgotten, it's just torture porn.

You seem to think I am advocating for religion. I am not. I am pointing out that some religions had something to offer everyone including women. This current ideology offers us nothing other then belonging.

Possibly but the consequences of supporting a baby with no partner or social welfare would be difficult.

Existing religions grew up because of fear and uncertainty and a need for communal rules.

This new religion doesn't have the same root cause.

Anyway I think your statements about religion benefitting women are simplistic and not well informed.

Has anything I've said made you think hmmm that's a point?

Or if not, happy to continue discussing!

And plenty of women have always wanted to have pre marital sex! So, um.

Women were chattel. Property. Still are in many countries whether by law or custom.

Abortion is still banned in many countries leading to massive amounts of death.

In some countries where sex before marriage does not result in prison/ beating/ death. Oh and being raped counts as adultery. Marriage is used to avoid men who have been sexually abusing girls, and got them pregnant, from the attention of the law. Eg some states in USA.

I could go on for hours.

Religion also had major benefits as long as the rules were followed. No pre marital sex benefited women when no safe contraception or abortion was available. As did the sin of adultery.....etc.

But basically the dynamic of any group which seeks to exploit women (or indeed any class, tbh, on a wider scale) will need to have women in positions of authority as enforcers. They will serve to keep the other women in line.

Great post Floral. This aspect of it all makes it so baffling that Margaret Atwood isn’t GC.

Loads of them.

Because it's what men decree.

And of course society supports as well.

With this it's seen as like gay rights. Who wouldn't support it?!

( Well religious right wingers in the USA mould types. My cheque from the USA every month is really handy!).

Women support that.

Maureen probably talks more sense, though.

I don't think transgenderism has the same benefits that religion did for women. Obviously religion is not great for us these days but at the least it may promise a life after death. What does supporting this new belief give us?

'I'm genuinely interested in why there is a sense that trans people are subjugating cis women?'

I've never seen this phrase used before. Subjugating is not a word I would use. I also wouldn't group all trans people together like that. I don't think eg non binary teen girls (female) are subjugating anyone!

The issues as I'm sure you know, being a life long feminist. Are this sort of thing-

Historically female only things being opened up on a self ID basis.
The refusal to engage with women and girls on what the consequences could be, why women and girls are worried, are there other solutions etc. Women and girls who ask are called all sorts of things and disregarded.

The removal of the ability to have any word/s to describe women and girls as a group. The new language reducing us to body parts- which due to the nature of the situation are referencing our sex/ reproductive organs. This has many many issues here and around the world.

'trans people' are fighting for what they want, most I'm sure are not actively thinking of ways to subjugate women.

The fact is though that the... Philosophy? Political stance? Is totally inconsistent. With what words mean what and what is transphobic shifting continuously. How can important policies be dependent on words that mean different things to different people?

A lot of what's being pressed for is a gift to MRAs, incel types, and the large minority of men who enjoy upsetting, scaring, unsettling, sexually assaulting etc etc women and girls. And all those who think women need bringing down a peg or 2.

[quote Thelnebriati]I'm genuinely interested in why there is a sense that trans people are subjugating cis women?

A judge just decided that the feelings of trans women are more important than the feelings and safety of incarcerated women.
www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2021/1746.html&query=(FDJ[/quote]
Remarkable that something of this magnitude to women would have passed someone by, tbh. But I think it answers the question most profoundly.

The accepted idea that men are protective of women is just that, an idea. A heavily pushed one.

In practice most men seem to care about their female relatives friends etc. But other women are not seen as real people. Things like men who are super protective of their own daughters ogling schoolgirls on the street is an example.

So the idea that the general man will be outraged at someone male going into the ladies if none of 'his' women are in there seems unlikely. This is seen all the time everywhere. When shit starts even if it's a girl blokes don't generally do anything. Women do. Sometimes no one does :(

And when really bad stuff happens we know that it's always straight to what the woman did wrong, she's making it up etc.

So I genuinely think that the majority of men would be happy to feel more comfy in male spaces, than worry about women -general women as a group.

I'm genuinely interested in why there is a sense that trans people are subjugating cis women?

A judge just decided that the feelings of trans women are more important than the feelings and safety of incarcerated women.
www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2021/1746.html&query=(FDJ

You should also be aware the Trans perspective is by no means unheard here. Some trans people even stay and read and understand women's views. Feel free to read the many threads which go into all the issues. Someone may be along to post the Break It Down For Me thread, which is a useful primer to help you understand.

'Women suffer more as a result of gender ideology, but I don’t see that it's in the interests of men as a class. '

I think it does tbh.

Men are really uncomfortable with men who... Not what men should be.

Men in general do not feel totally comfy with men they take as gay or feminine or performing feminity. Especially in toilets or other situations where they feel vulnerable. Getting changed, showering after sport etc.

The casual homophobia about back to the wall etc belies a very real discomfort.

That plus the whole men/ non men thing works for them. Anyone who is not seen as a 'real' man. Who is not-man goes somewhere else. I'm sure loads would be ok with gay men even bi men being just anywhere else when it comes to these situations.

[quote Miskirsky]@FloralBunting

I apologise, obviously no offence intended. As far as I am concerned we are both women. It's just relatively common parlance and within the context of trans allies, was included for clarity and ease of reading. [/quote]
As far as I'm concerned we are both human, but we are the opposite sex, and there are already terms which suffice to differentiate us. I'm sure no offence was intended, but it will certainly be assumed if you use it of me again. I don't identify as a gender, I consider it a tool of oppression that damages women, primarily. I will stick to the rules of this board, and use the words 'women' and 'transwomen'.