Is this a woman lead movement?

Christie Elan-Kane, campaigning for the right to have X instead of male or female on passports.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4293818-Non-Binary-passport-appeal-on-Mon

Dr Igi Moon, who was responsible for the memorandum of understanding against conversion therapy, which appears to forbid anything other than affirmation for children who believe they are transgender.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4293723-Professionals-Assured-Under-18s-protection-from-irreversible-decisions

And of course, people like Stephen Whittle, Freddy McConnell and James Morton.

Many female people who now identify as non-binary or as transmen previously described themselves as lesbians before deciding that they weren't actually women. Now they appear to hate women so much that they want their rights to be destroyed and for them to be less safe.

The men behind this probably can't believe their luck that they have a whole bunch of female people to put up as figureheads to support their claims that this isn't a movement which is for the benefit of and led by men.

It’s led by men, as they invented it. But it’s supported by women who want to beeee niiiice without giving the issue any real thought, or who inwardly despise women but wouldn’t dare say so, or who want to keep in with the boys. Or young women who are frightened to disagree with their aggressive and seemingly powerful peer groups.

[quote Miskirsky]@FloralBunting

I apologise, obviously no offence intended. As far as I am concerned we are both women. It's just relatively common parlance and within the context of trans allies, was included for clarity and ease of reading. [/quote]
But you're not a woman, are you? You're a biological man pretending to be a woman and pretending that you you know what it is to be a woman.

I'm heartily sick of all this 'be nice' bullshit - sorry if I've offended you, Miskirsky, but let's not pretend you're a woman or female. Forget the linguistic bullshit and let's be honest.

There was a great discussion the other day on Triggernometry with Heather Heying and Jordan Peterson, and one of the viewer questions was relevant to this thread:

Thank you for highlighting this, NecessaryScene and for your reflections on it and the whole chat, NonnyMouse - some of it is in line with my early response and I need to think about the rest.

[quote NecessaryScene]There was a great discussion the other day on Triggernometry with Heather Heying and Jordan Peterson, and one of the viewer questions was relevant to this thread:

Women seem more vulnerable to the Woke religion. I think because it hijacks the "mama bear" circuits. Is there any psychological intervention or an evolutionary perspective that could be used to at least curtail this?

That led to a lot of interesting stuff from both Heying (evolutionary biologist) and Peterson (psychologist) about why women get caught up in this, and act as enforcers against other women.

Arguably if "toxic masculinity" is a thing, then to some extent this can be "toxic femininity". Both sexes have certain sex-typical behaviour which can be pathological, and social shunning is a female one.

There is some horrible behaviour within so many women's groups towards those that don't toe the gender identity creed, that I don't think it's a phenomenon that can be ignored. Destroying reputation, bullying, shunning etc. It's not just the male threats of violence that women who are gender heretics have to endure, but the sheer viciousness of some women who use these toxic tactics to eject 'wrongdoers' from various social and professional circles, while demonstrating to anyone else what can happen if they also dare to speak up. It's like some magnified version of highschool politics.
I have no idea how one would go about addressing it.

I haven't asked no as it's work!

If outside then yes I would.

She's v involved in LGBT+ activism so I suspect that's what it's about.

If she's nice and kind and genuinely feminist, she should be willing to explain to you why she believes what she does. Ask her. Surely a nice, kind feminist would be willing to explain some of her views on feminism to another feminist.

If she reacts angrily to the suggestion that she should be able and willing to explain her beliefs, is she really a 'nice, kind feminist'? Or if you daren't ask because you think you will be denounced as a bigot, is she really a 'nice, kind feminist'?

We shouldn't have to spend so much time trying to understand what people like this are thinking because we are too afraid to ask because of our fear of what their reaction might be, or because they won't answer our questions.

We can only go so far with trying to understand them, and then it's up to them to explain to us to help us to understand.

I agree. Have you asked her why she thinks what she does, NiceGerbil?

If she reacts angrily to the suggestion that she should be able and willing to explain her beliefs, is she really a 'nice, kind feminist'? Or if you daren't ask because you think you will be denounced as a bigot, is she really a 'nice, kind feminist'?

We shouldn't have to spend so much time trying to understand what people like this are thinking because we are too afraid to ask because of our fear of what their reaction might be, or because they won't answer our questions.

We can only go so far with trying to understand them, and then it's up to them to explain to us to help us to understand.

I'm sure there are many people who support this, and believe they are doing so out of kindness. Most people don't think beyond a very superficial level.

However, I have yet to see someone who, when the nuts and bolts of the issue are discussed, like prisons, sports, hospital care, homophobia, open child abuse based on sexist stereotypes etc. doesn't begin to shift away from the overt #BeKind perspective. Sometimes it takes time, true.

The only reason I've seen it happen in the other direction is when the pressure of standing against a system that persistently denigrates and disbelieves women becomes overwhelming. It's incredibly psychologically draining to be constantly confronted with how little women matter. I have to take breaks a lot, because there have been times when I've realized that I'm statistically likely to be standing in a bus queue with a rapist and I've wanted to sob.

But there are women, and those are the women we are talking about here, who are presented with the unvarnished truth, and no matter how logically or calmly it is presented, reject it and actively choose the position of oppressor. Identifying as nice, kind feminists, too. Some of them might be on the journey out if it, of course, in which case the only answer is to keep presenting the truth, keep defending women, keep.upholding safeguarding.

But one of the important tenets of feminism is that women are whole people, not paragons of virtue. We are just as capable as men are of greatness, but by the same token, we're just as capable of stupidity, wilful ignorance and sometimes, great evil. It manifests differently to men, partly due to biology (we can't rape, for example) and sometimes due to conditioning (the standard behaviour of a woman TRA is different to a male one, less likely to be wielding weapons, etc.). But the simple fact is that if a woman rejects the evidence that women and children are harmed by Genderism, and persists in claiming that she is being kind by doing so, she is lying.

If we continue to insist that people like Sally Hines, Ash Sarkar, Susie Green etc. are doing what they are doing because they are nice, kind feminists, we are just as guilty as Genderists of taking words and completely changing their meanings.

Feminists are women who seek the liberation of women, and the protection of their rights and freedoms. If a woman doesn't do that, she's not a feminist, and her niceness and kindness is focused on men.

Well I know her and she is.

It's an error to dismiss the loads of people who support this as bastards and not try and understand what the hell they are thinking.

People who are nice and kind and genuinely feminist are supporting this.

People who are so far gone that they support the idea of males in all female spaces without any right for women and girls to object, because not to do so would challenge their cognitive dissonance, are not "nice and kind and genuinely feminist".

narcissistabusesupport.com/red-flags/use-flying-monkeys/

People who are nice and kind and genuinely feminist are supporting this.

Because they are flying monkeys.

Across the board? Well, thankfully no, not yet, anyway. But it's quite hard the escape the sense of prevailing trend. You only have to look at the level of institutional capture. The amount of people claiming to be socialists because they like free healthcare without the slightest clue what class analysis is, why it matters or how to apply the concept.
People collect labels like pin badges, and sure, someone says they're a feminist, but dig into what they mean and you'll get 17 different answers.
The fact that language is malleable and changes organically is manipulated to control, social media is designed to create dependencies. Honestly, it's the biggest self destruct button waiting to happen that I could imagine.
Dystopias taken as guide books rather than warnings.

Yeesh, I know I shound cynical. And I don't think all is lost, far from it, or I wouldn't still be bothering. But i do believe that unless you truly grasp what you're up against - the mindsets that drive these authoritarian madnesses through - you face a harder job holding them back.
I mean, fuck, I survived conservative patriarchal Christianity by the skin of my teeth, and I only fell into into because of growing up in a household of much more secular abuse and neglect. There are millions more stories like that, and understanding the motivations that leads women to punch hard at other women, like someone drowning and dragging people down with them, is vital.

I think it's a mistake to see it like that.

People who are nice and kind and genuinely feminist are supporting this.

Why?

But that's not ... Across the board?

The woman I know is lovely, a feminist, etc.

She buys all this.

I've long ago been disabused of the notion that rationality and argument will inevitably persuade. I still hold to it as a personal guiding principle, but while individuals can be highly reasonable, others seem to think reason is a moral failing.
That's why queer theory has such a grip, I guess. We're truly in the dying embers of enlightenment rationalism, veering headlong into a new age of superstition and mob rule.
Enough people can still follow a logical argument and have a basic concept of protecting the vulnerable. But a growing cohort of individualistic, capitalist consumers who have grown up believing that their immediate wants supercede almost anything are kicking the shit out of the foundations of society.

And the really sad thing is that they still have enough natural reason to read through this and understand, but only the ruined shell of an ethical framework that will declare simply that the foundations need to be destroyed.

Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere

The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst

Are full of passionate intensity.

What rough beast is slouching toward Bethlehem, eh?

How far will they go though?

Is an interesting point.

Around the world women do all sorts of awful things to women and girls.

If women can be e.g. in favour of murdering their daughter due to 'honour'. Then I wouldn't expect any changes of heart soon.

The reason the female enforcers are quite so vicious in trying to stamp the dissent out is both because they know they will lose their position, and they also know exactly what awaits those women who do dissent, because they themselves have enacted it on other women.

Brilliantly put.

Started in chat! .

Post on here to let me know if you do!

Yay! I think we disagree but will be interesting and prob will get others.

If you put aside s certain issue then fem chat?

And I just might start another thread . It would be interesting to discuss!

Another thread! Let's do it :)

@NiceGerbil

If you skip my first two paragraphs, would you agree then? There is almost nothing about religion in those, only about alternative social structures.