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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Rosa Freedman told to 'Choose your words carefully'

220 replies

NancyDrawed · 29/06/2021 11:51

Article in Daily Mail

[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9736211/Professor-shares-letter-Reading-student-warning-gender-critical-talks-problematic.html]]

OP posts:
OldTurtleNewShell · 29/06/2021 19:59

@LazyHorizon

This woman has been emotionally terrorised for some time by these entitled thought police, and this time she snapped. Who can blame her? I can’t.
Yes. This.
Looksgood · 29/06/2021 19:58

@LazyHorizon

This woman has been emotionally terrorised for some time by these entitled thought police, and this time she snapped. Who can blame her? I can’t.
I understand that that could happen. I am sorry she's facing this. To be honest the syntax isn't sharp enough for me to be clear on whether I would read it as a threat or not - he understands TRAs have attacked her and wants her to understand that he won't behave aggressively (or that he could?) I don't think it's minimising to say that it's ambiguous and I'd read it the first way.

If the university didn't act to investigate / reprimand I'd be shocked and alarmed, but she hasn't said that has she - the implication is she's just received this.

LazyHorizon · 29/06/2021 19:51

This woman has been emotionally terrorised for some time by these entitled thought police, and this time she snapped. Who can blame her? I can’t.

Looksgood · 29/06/2021 19:49

@heathspeedwell

He clearly doesn't believe there's 'an uneven balance of power'. He's absolutely acting like he's in control: he calls her Rosa, he accuses her of being 'problematic' and implies her views are on a level with racism, then he demands that she meets him quickly before he takes things further, while also telling her to choose her words carefully.
Sure. It's a silly and offensive email.

I'd still expect a staff member to invoke internal complaint or disciplinary procedures. If I'd received that, I'd want an enquiry into this business of 'working' with the university, and I would either explain to him what made his email offensive or expect another party to do so following disciplinary procedures or informal action short of disciplinary procedures.

If I wanted to comment on twitter, I'd leave his name out of it. I don't think it's victim blaming to criticise her reaction. Other people's bad behaviour doesn't give you a free pass. She didn't deserve to receive that message, but unless Reading's conduct and disciplinary provisions are way outside the norm, she's published it unnecessarily and her action looks unprofessional to me.

PronounssheRa · 29/06/2021 19:41

He did that - clumsily and pompously

I think you are hugely minimising his behaviour. His email was menacing and threatening. Rosa has been putting up with this sort of shit for a few years now and it seems she is at the end of her tether. The uni also have a duty of care to its staff and while they may have dealt with incidents when they have happened, they aren't preventing them from happening over and over again. Alex clearly thought that this kind of behaviour was acceptable.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 29/06/2021 19:41

Was it Professor Freedman who had students pissing over her office door?

Ah yes it was

www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-berkshire-46454454

heathspeedwell · 29/06/2021 19:38

He clearly doesn't believe there's 'an uneven balance of power'. He's absolutely acting like he's in control: he calls her Rosa, he accuses her of being 'problematic' and implies her views are on a level with racism, then he demands that she meets him quickly before he takes things further, while also telling her to choose her words carefully.

Looksgood · 29/06/2021 19:29

@Tanith

Rosa Freedman has said that Reading University has supported her. They were on a TRA list of “dangerous” universities for trans people because they do listen to both sides and deal with problems. They’ve dealt with students targeting her in the past.

On this occasion, she has bypassed their disciplinary procedure to publish the full name and email address of this student. Please don’t insult our intelligence by quibbling over whether or not it’s doxxing because it was his university email address: he is now identifiable. That is doxxing.

You’d be raging if a TRA did that to a GC woman.

Parents and students are currently looking at universities with a view to next term’s admissions. They now know that, at Reading, there is a member of staff who believes naming and shaming a student on Twitter and in the national press is an acceptable alternative to using the University’s disciplinary procedure.

You would not like it if the roles were reversed. People can now point and say “it’s both sides!” You may be sure that the TRAs will do exactly that.

I agree. Any university complaint / harassment / dispute processes I've seen start by asking staff or students to take the issue directly to the other person involved if they are comfortable doing so. He did that - clumsily and pompously. She could have done the same. She could have brought his claim that others in the university were working with him to the university's attention directly and asked for reassurance and clarification.

I don't think calling him out on twitter was appropriate or professional. There's an uneven balance of power between academic and student.

I agree entirely with her stance on gender ideology.

MichelleScarn · 29/06/2021 19:28

@nonever If men don’t want their threatening private messages to women made public, perhaps they should think of that before they send them.
Said much more succinctly than I've managed so far!

AlfonsoTheMango · 29/06/2021 19:23

Yeah. Blame the victim. Mean old Rosa Freedman for standing up for herself against a wannabe bully.

NoNever · 29/06/2021 19:17

@Tanith

He’s still a kid and there are ways of dealing with this that do not involve posting his contact details on Twitter. The University has a duty of care to its students as well as its staff and Rosa is a member of staff. It’s not OK to post his details on Twitter.
I’m pretty tired of women being expect to be “kind” and protect the men who are threatening and abusing them from being held accountable for their actions.

If men don’t want their threatening private messages to women made public, perhaps they should think of that before they send them.

AlfonsoTheMango · 29/06/2021 19:06

And the Daily Mail approached Mr Wareham but he refused to comment.

AlfonsoTheMango · 29/06/2021 18:57

@Tanith

Rosa Freedman has said that Reading University has supported her. They were on a TRA list of “dangerous” universities for trans people because they do listen to both sides and deal with problems. They’ve dealt with students targeting her in the past.

On this occasion, she has bypassed their disciplinary procedure to publish the full name and email address of this student. Please don’t insult our intelligence by quibbling over whether or not it’s doxxing because it was his university email address: he is now identifiable. That is doxxing.

You’d be raging if a TRA did that to a GC woman.

Parents and students are currently looking at universities with a view to next term’s admissions. They now know that, at Reading, there is a member of staff who believes naming and shaming a student on Twitter and in the national press is an acceptable alternative to using the University’s disciplinary procedure.

You would not like it if the roles were reversed. People can now point and say “it’s both sides!” You may be sure that the TRAs will do exactly that.

If knowing what doxxing means insults your intelligence I feel sorry for you. Doxxing means revealing private information like a home address not someone's university address.
MichelleScarn · 29/06/2021 18:56

@Tanith

Rosa Freedman has said that Reading University has supported her. They were on a TRA list of “dangerous” universities for trans people because they do listen to both sides and deal with problems. They’ve dealt with students targeting her in the past.

On this occasion, she has bypassed their disciplinary procedure to publish the full name and email address of this student. Please don’t insult our intelligence by quibbling over whether or not it’s doxxing because it was his university email address: he is now identifiable. That is doxxing.

You’d be raging if a TRA did that to a GC woman.

Parents and students are currently looking at universities with a view to next term’s admissions. They now know that, at Reading, there is a member of staff who believes naming and shaming a student on Twitter and in the national press is an acceptable alternative to using the University’s disciplinary procedure.

You would not like it if the roles were reversed. People can now point and say “it’s both sides!” You may be sure that the TRAs will do exactly that.

@Tanith I still don't get this. The writer of the letter appears to be very proud of his letter and states that he had other professors in agreement and discussion with him. How can he feel he is being shamed then for this?
Datun · 29/06/2021 18:42

Tanith

Do you know for sure whether or not the University had been told of this email?

Because the way I read it was that she was at the end of her tether.

She didn't sound like someone for whom the disciplinary process had worked. And this email certainly shows that people are still emboldened to send her threats.

Tanith · 29/06/2021 18:38

Rosa Freedman has said that Reading University has supported her. They were on a TRA list of “dangerous” universities for trans people because they do listen to both sides and deal with problems. They’ve dealt with students targeting her in the past.

On this occasion, she has bypassed their disciplinary procedure to publish the full name and email address of this student. Please don’t insult our intelligence by quibbling over whether or not it’s doxxing because it was his university email address: he is now identifiable. That is doxxing.

You’d be raging if a TRA did that to a GC woman.

Parents and students are currently looking at universities with a view to next term’s admissions. They now know that, at Reading, there is a member of staff who believes naming and shaming a student on Twitter and in the national press is an acceptable alternative to using the University’s disciplinary procedure.

You would not like it if the roles were reversed. People can now point and say “it’s both sides!” You may be sure that the TRAs will do exactly that.

RedDogsBeg · 29/06/2021 18:38

@Datun

I wonder if they were 'looking into it' before she put it on Twitter.
I wonder.....
toffeebutterpopcorn · 29/06/2021 18:10

An but the kiddies will be expecting a personalised 4 page report won’t they? There are some serious ‘little emperor’ vibes there...

WarOnWoman · 29/06/2021 17:57

@toffeebutterpopcorn

WarOnWoman - whoever has been given the job to ‘look into’ all the comments (not that they will I suppose - can you imagine your boss saying ‘can you just respond to 800 people on twitter, some of whom will demand a personalise reply, or else they will demand a meeting with God to complain’) and whoever is running their twitter account (terrified of saying the wrong thing and getting dogs abuse).
Well, it's just copy and paste, innit? They've just repeated "we're looking into it" 799 times, with a name in the front. The university took a long time to reply so the decision to say that phrase was no accident. It's bland enough not to irritate anyone. Also, we're looking into it could mean the sm team or university bigwigs. Polite non-answer.
toffeebutterpopcorn · 29/06/2021 17:44

WarOnWoman - whoever has been given the job to ‘look into’ all the comments (not that they will I suppose - can you imagine your boss saying ‘can you just respond to 800 people on twitter, some of whom will demand a personalise reply, or else they will demand a meeting with God to complain’) and whoever is running their twitter account (terrified of saying the wrong thing and getting dogs abuse).

Datun · 29/06/2021 17:39

I wonder if they were 'looking into it' before she put it on Twitter.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 29/06/2021 17:38

And her work on the politicisation of human rights is held in very high regard, and the university benefits from that.

Her summary of the history of human rights is the best and most succinct that I've ever seen.

A Woman's Place is at the Bar (Professor Rosa Freedman, Reading, 4th December 2018)

WarOnWoman · 29/06/2021 17:38

@toffeebutterpopcorn

I almost feel sorry for them.

Who?

toffeebutterpopcorn · 29/06/2021 17:29

I almost feel sorry for them.

DialSquare · 29/06/2021 17:28

Both!