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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can anyone help me challenge this please?

37 replies

EenyMeenyMinyNo · 27/06/2021 15:21

I'm a school governor and we subscribe to a company that offer guidance and support to schools in the way of policies, resources and best practice. The attached is within a resource for schools to use as their Equality and Diversity policy. Have I missed something?

Can anyone help me challenge this please?
OP posts:
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BadGherkin · 03/07/2021 02:26

But @Saltyslug, my point is that a person doesn’t need a GRC to be protected under the pc of Gender Reassignment. Anyone even thinking of transitioning is covered.

Iggi999 · 02/07/2021 23:59

@WarOnWoman

OP, the language used in the EA2000 is as clear as mud and outdated and not fit for purpose.
2010, so not that outdated!
dyslek · 02/07/2021 20:31

Is it tho? specifically?
Gender reasignment is a protected characteristic (as is sex) and beliving in science is a protected belief but is believing in gender idology?

Saltyslug · 02/07/2021 15:15

Here this clarify a it’s for you badgherkin

Can anyone help me challenge this please?
Can anyone help me challenge this please?
2fallsagain · 30/06/2021 07:38

I think that is where these two concepts get conflated.

2fallsagain · 30/06/2021 06:26

Charley it is contested when schools socially transition children without consent of (or consultation with) their parents. There is the argument that children cannot possibly make a commitment to live as the opposite sex.

Regardless, having a PC of GR does not trump the PC of sex. It does not mean boys who say they are girls get treated as if they are girls. It just means they can't be discriminated against because they say they are girls.

BadGherkin · 30/06/2021 01:29

@Saltyslug
That is not correct - obtaining a GRC takes 2 years, etc.

Gender Reassignment (as a protected characteristic) can, at the absolute minimum, simply involve stating that the person is considering transitioning in the future or social transitioning. It does not require any specialist involvement, diagnosis or surgery.

Saltyslug · 30/06/2021 00:45

It’s incorrect. The protected characteristics include gender reassignment but not gender identity. Gender reassignment is a formal process involving specialist consultants, gender dysphoria and usually takes two years to get the certificate.

There has been a push to misinterpret legislation and confuse which has led to many in main stream life wrongly assuming gender identity and gender reassignment are the same thing.

CharlieParley · 30/06/2021 00:23

@2fallsagain

This is a hotly contested area (children and PC of GR). However GR does not trump sex and there are still situations where a male person can be legitimately excluded from a female space.
Children and medical transition is a hotly contested issue indeed, but I have to respectfully disagree that children and the protected characteristic of gender reassignment under the Equality Act is a contested issue.

It isn't. The law is clear on this and consequently, the EHRC Technical Guidance for schools list gender reassignment as one of the protected characteristics that apply to schools.

2fallsagain · 29/06/2021 23:04

This is a hotly contested area (children and PC of GR). However GR does not trump sex and there are still situations where a male person can be legitimately excluded from a female space.

CharlieParley · 29/06/2021 21:56

@oldwomanwhoruns

But children cannot undergo gender reassignment, they are children. So they can't even be considering gender reassignment (too young to make that decision). So why is this section relevant to the school? Shouldn't the policy just note 'Gender reassignment - not relevant in this context'??
For the protected characteristic of gender reassignment to apply, one does not have to undergo a process of gender reassignment.

The Equality Act also makes it clear that a social transition is enough to engage this protected characteristic. (Even just stating your intention to change your name and pronouns would be enough, too.)

So, yes, this protected characteristic applies to all ages.

oldwomanwhoruns · 29/06/2021 07:36

But children cannot undergo gender reassignment, they are children. So they can't even be considering gender reassignment (too young to make that decision). So why is this section relevant to the school? Shouldn't the policy just note 'Gender reassignment - not relevant in this context'??

stumbledin · 28/06/2021 23:56

Just in case OP needs to provide "evidence" in relation to the protected characteristics these are the links incorporating latest changes:

Protected characteristics - all
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/4

Gender reassignment - definition
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/7

Sex - definition
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/11

GrownUpBeans · 28/06/2021 22:17

Gender identity is protected as a belief. But so is not having such a belief. If they want to mention gender identity, it should be in the 'religion and belief' section with wording that lack of belief is also protected (similar to the wording they have used for religion).

CuriousaboutSamphire · 28/06/2021 08:03

@WarOnWoman

Curious. Duh at me. HmmBrain not working. Getting mixed up with GRC. ConfusedBlush
I did think it was odd. But then we've had so many odd posts recently... Grin
CharlieParley · 27/06/2021 19:24

Gender identity and/or reassignment

Gender identity and gender reassignment are not the same thing.

There is no legal definition of gender identity in UK law. Where it is defined, it is described as an internal feeling.

There is a definition of gender reassignment in the UK Equality Act (as stated by pp). It describes a process of transition. Whatever that means we might argue about, especially from a feminist viewpoint, but various judgements allow us to conclude that this is not understood to be a mere innermost feeling. There has to be a stated intent at the very least, if not an action taken towards transitioning.

So conflating an ideological belief with an action (undertaken, in progress or planned) is not correct. As this is a list of the protected characteristics, it should be noted that they cannot be designated or changed at will - it takes an Act of Parliament to do so. Until that happens, the list of mandatory (i.e. named in the Equality Act) protected characteristics must be the ones stated in the Act. It is legal to add additional characteristics (such as class or education or gender identity) but even then the protected characteristics under the Equality Act take precedence.

The Act protects transgender people.

Well, to be precise, the Act protects transsexual people. However, its protections can be applied to transgender people, just not today's trans umbrella in its entirety.

The Act no longer requires a person to be under medical supervision to be protected, so a person who does not undergo any medical procedures would be protected.

This is an inaccurate representation of the Equality Act. It never required a medical transition before a transsexual could be protected under gender reassignment. And although it is correct that the Act protects those who have no intention to medically transition, someone who merely states "I identify as" but has no intention to change any aspect of themselves would not be protected. A social transition or even a plan to socially transition would however be enough to engage this protected characteristic.

The focus on a medical transition is also misleading, because their text could be interpreted to mean that while you don't have to medically transition, you do have to socially transition before you are protected under the characteristic of gender reassignment. You don't. An employee for instance who informs their employer that they are planning to come out as trans and, for instance, wish to be addressed by a different name or wear the uniform mandated for employees of the opposite sex, would be protected under gender reassignment from that moment onwards.

snowcobra · 27/06/2021 19:16

@BlueberryCheese

There's nothing to challenge. This is perfectly correct.
As far as I know only gender reassignment (NOT gender identity) is a protected characteristic, and gender reassignment is not synonymous with being transgender. Hence this guidance is incorrect.

Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

NewlyGranny · 27/06/2021 19:06

Gender identity is not a PC. Gender reassignment is. Sex is. Sexual orientation is, too.

Whoever provided this suggested policy has not followed the law. School will be outside the law of they adopt it.

Show them the wording of the Act. It's on the .GOV website. If the need reminding, ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Clymene · 27/06/2021 18:38

The act has not changed and gender identity is not a PC

Tinysalmonswimminginastream · 27/06/2021 18:19

This is not correct is it? Its 'gender reassignment' not 'gender identity' and when was the 'act changed'?

I can see though that it does state that you only have to 'plan to' undergo gender reassignment to be protected though, although I have no idea what it means by 'changing physiological or other attributes of sex'?

Pps are right, it is as clear as mud, which is why it has been so easy for TRAs to misinterpret it.

WarOnWoman · 27/06/2021 18:09

Curious. Duh at me. HmmBrain not working. Getting mixed up with GRC. ConfusedBlush

Theeyeballsinthesky · 27/06/2021 16:26

Yes that is correct but nowhere does it mention gender identity so that needs to go from what the OP has posted

Thelnebriati · 27/06/2021 16:26

A person without a GRC has not changed their legal gender, and you can only apply for a gender recognition certificate if you are 18 or over.

So while children cannot be discriminated against on the grounds of gender reassignment, they also cannot be granted rights of the opposite sex.

CatherinaJTV · 27/06/2021 16:23

EA2010, section 7

Gender reassignment
(1)A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.

my bold and underline - you do not need to have undergone gender reassignment. It's enough to state you plan to.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 27/06/2021 16:04

@WarOnWoman

OP, the language used in the EA2000 is as clear as mud and outdated and not fit for purpose.
Only if you don't read the accompanying guidance notes.

If you do then there is no ambiguity.