Transgender weightlifting

I do not feel there is any reason to not be as inclusive as possible in any walks of life to trans women

I hope that means @Husbandno3 that - as a man - you include transwomen in your dating and romantic life, and that they are welcome in male single-sex spaces.

Sorry there’s an erroneous ‘men’ in the paragraph about public perception, and many people would not realise what the story involves.

however, in sport, female space should be protected That's your line in the sand. For many women, that line is in a different place. Whose opinion should carry more weight?

If you report your post (button behind the 3 dots), you can ask why your it was moved. It's kinda connected to my first sentence and that men don't like it that women have boundaries.

Which I don’t think is relevant or a sensible thing to create in the first place.

It was created to counter the myth that transwomen don’t commit crime, whereas the reality is they’re just as likely to commit crime, and the same types of crime, as any other males.

I have a godson and the idea that if he identifies a as a women he won’t be be able to express it for fear of being discriminated against is not a world I want to build for him.

We would all support your godson to express himself however he wanted without fear. But it’s not discriminatory to say to someone that they can’t have everything they want.

I don’t think posting pictures of the weightlifter is relevant.

It’s a useful reminder that transwomen are not what many of the public perceive them to be, post-surgical, post-treatment feminine looking men. It’s not to mock Hubbard, it’s to mock the absurdity of the situation of someone who retains a male physique and all of the attributes that provide physical benefit being allowed to compete against women. Many people, without seeing Hubbard, would realise what the story actually involves.

IMO it’s also completely unfair to others

Agreed. Correct. Now, why is it completely unfair in sport, but not in the other scenarios you describe? What about prisons? Refuges? Rape crisis centres?

I posted this in a pretty open area, cause I wanted to see what the majority of people in the general population thought on this issue in the news

Did you ask for MNHQ to move it or did they move it from AIBU of their own volition?

Obviously on the feminism board most people seem to not recognise trans women’s rights to identify as women

Incorrect. Most people - around the world - think people can identify however they want. What that does not mean is that a male is actually a woman and that allows them all of the rights for women. If something is ring fenced for a woman, a woman should get it, not a male who identifies as a woman.

Well obviously you disagree maybe you have better goals than that nice gerbil

Weightlifting allows you “to be better to achieve and for personal goals”.

Competitive weightlifting, which that poster said they were, is about doing as well as possible in competition. If males are in female competition, it becomes pointless for the females.

Maybe you should have empathy for those whose places in competitions have and will be affected.

OP if aliens landed tomorrow and they were circa 15% faster and circa 30% stronger than male human athletes do you think that Messi, Djokovic, Hamilton etc would be expected to budge over let the aliens in to their sports? Would you ask them to suck it up and lose their titles, their prize money, their place in the team? Because that is what we are asking women to do by allowing Tranwomen into female sport.

NotBadConsidering

Yes I wasn't expecting that tbh.

Posts about things like rapists in female prisons and sport and so on in chat or aibu usually attract s lot of posts and s pretty good conversation.

On those threads most posters agree that transwomen are transwomen.

This topic is of interest to all women surely? And it's not like there were loads of posts on other topics.

I'm surprised and disappointed.

But WHY and HOW has it happened that the rules were changed to allow male people to compete against women.

Even though every bloody person in the world knows the differences between male and female people in size strength etc etc.

And now women have to fight to show it's not fair.

Rather than the starting point being the status quo and proof having to be found that it's fair.

(And even if it was fair. There's a whole lot of other stuff with women's sports about. Funding, encouragement, defying stereotypes, role models for girls, in teams s feeling of camaraderie the same as no one questions the men having etc etc).

WHY did it get done. And then it's up to us to prove that men and women are different biologically? And have people going on about clownfish, dragging DSDs into things, and saying if women lose to men they're just not trying hard enough, and Michael Phelps feet etc.

It's a fucking piss take.

Everyone knows the difference. Everyone.

Why are so many people pretending they don't and wittering on about frogs?

Misogyny is why. Men want something. Other men put themselves in their shoes and think yeah that's shit they need to be given a hand.

And when women say no, what? Hold on s sec... They are accused of some of the most bizarre things in order to try and shut them up. Women saying no is intolerable.

Very true running.

Maybe OP hasn’t seen this study done by Swansea university into the brain structure and even skull thickness of females (ie. It doesn’t change with cross sex hormones so males won’t have this issue.)

It makes them more prone to significant head injuries. Other studies then prove links to dementia for these head injuries etc as well.

www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-51434749

It doesn’t take much to connect the dots that retained speed and strength and skeleton of a male playing rugby with females means more chance of head injuries for the female players.

And a future of early dementia.

Incidentally, early onset dementia is a potential side effect of loss of ovaries in a young female. Loss of ovaries is a side effect of cross sex hormone treatment for female transitioners. Sadly, this is not being discussed but is a serious potential risk for female transitioners that male transitioners do not have.

Just so we are clear, this thread started in AIBU, and has been moved. So no one can ever discuss anything to do with gender ever, all all, in any place on Mumsnet, not in any mainstream areas, despite a person wanting to discuss it with a variety of people, other than this sub forum?

So when it was proposed that feminism discussions be split to allow discussion of non-gender related feminism topics, that wasn’t the true intention, what MNHQ actually meant is that all gender discussion needs to be corralled. Is that correct?

It is not just "a bit unfair" allowing male bodied people to compete against women. In contact sports it is bloody dangerous, women have already sustained life altering injuries. Allowing male bodied people to join women's sports teams will mean women from certain religious groups will not be able to participate in those sports and women and girls who are not comfortable getting changed in the same spaces as male bodied people or having close physical contact with male bodies will stop participating in sport. It is totally unacceptable for male bodies to be entered into the female category in sports but it is also totally unacceptable for male bodies to be locked up in female prison or occupying beds in female hospital wards or winning prizes intended for women or in a myriad of other women's spaces.

Yes. This photo clearly shows the hip alignment of this person.

I like to think that a picture paints a thousand words.

Looking at this again it's more revealing than at first glance.

'-for those of you who believe that all/the majority of trans people are committing violent hate crimes, I’m sure there may be a website of both male and female violent crimes that have been committed in the last year. The website you highlighted must represent a minority of people and I don’t (my personal viewpoint) believe it’s conducive to an inclusive society to highlight the crimes of one gender/race/sex/age bracket ect.'

The belief that most trans people are committing violent hate crimes...

When this was written, were they thinking of all trans people?
Transmen, transwomen, and children with a trans identity?
If so, the violent hate bit is very strange. No one surely thinks that hordes of non binary 12yo female children are going out and beating people up!!!

I think, and I'm pretty confident I'm not wrong. Was that it was a certain group of trans people in mind. A focus on a certain subset. The others not really in the picture at all.

Interesting.

And despite that. A desire to remove all metrics from offender stats. No sex, age, etc etc.
Note gender comes first. Sex third.

FYI to that poster you can leave sex out. Crime stats for offenders have been self ID for ages.
Strangely, it's still important to record when a victim is transgender.
Consistency as always.

The discrimination I'd like to see addressed is the fact that despite it being almost exclusively male people who attack trans people, make violent-minded, sexualised and misogynistic threats to women online and infiltrate female-only spaces, it's always women who get patronised and lectured and told to Be Nice And Inclusive.

Amazing how these people can always identify the women when they want to do that...

littlbrowndog

FGM?

A contraversial term. At times it seems that the term is seen as more of an outrage than the practice.

Also many 'people' (I can't say which type) have understandable issues with/ anger about circumcision.

They get angry that FGM is illegal here but circumcision is not.

They say that the terms are unbalanced and it should be renamed MGM

I have a lot of sympathy with their views (apart from the last one).

What I CANNOT understand is why men who want change, come onto this site and join FGM threads to say it's not fair etc.

Circumcision is a practice in 2 major religions (maybe more).
The religions are patriarchal.
IME dads are keen to get their sons circumcised.

Why come and argue with women on MN? We didn't make those rules. Many/most of us are not from religions that do that.

It would be more productive surely to:

Support or create charities to help men who have been damaged by circumcision.
Lobby the government
Lobby the religious leaders
Get information out. The risks. You don't have to do this. There are choices.
Raise awareness of this with the general public.

All the usual stuff.

What is the point of coming onto this site, and telling women talking about FGM that they are sexist and mean?

(Rhetorical question obv).

I can't believe someone is arguing that Caster Semenya is a biological female. Caster is a biological male with a DSD which affects ONLY MALES. They had the benefit of male puberty and have known about their medical condition for at least 10 years.

Oh. And please do stop with that hyperbole in telling women that we are painting all trans people as criminals etc.

You are not even the first poster to do this today.

Some women posting on this board have been discussing this issue for a decade. Many of us posting on this thread have been following the research and disseminating the results for years.

if a trans women does not want to be included in a male space, do you think we (as society) should be creating their own space

Some transwomen think this. If you have a hunt down the Petitions and Activism board you should be able to find a thread created by a transwoman who occasionally posts on MN, with a link to a petition for 'third spaces' created by some other transwomen.

If you want to do something constructive, maybe support their efforts?

do you think that will lead to more division rather than reducing discrimination

You do realise some discrimination is for the purpose of fairness, don’t you?

Do you believe an adult should be able to compete in the under 16s?

Do you believe a 20 year old should be able to compete with a 70 year old?

Do you believe an able bodied person should be able to compete in the Paralympics?

Why do you think males and females were separated in the first place?

Why do you think males ever should be able to compete with females? Please read the Lundberg and Hilton review, it includes an Australian school children study and a Greek study that shows even 6 year old males have advantages over females of same age.

Also, why is it women’s burden to eliminate discrimination by males? Male transitioners are male. Why should it be up to women to fix male on male discrimination?

Please be very clear what has happened to these males that has made them have female bodies rather than male bodies?

• Where sex matters, I'd like to see male spaces, female spaces and a third open space for anyone who, for whatever reason, doesn't want to use the space for their sex. I don't think this creates division, as people have a choice and it's not for trans people, just those who for whatever reason don't want to use the sex segregated one. Can't wait to see how many natal women use them, or for your arse about face explanations as to why. But they're a fair solution that take nothing away from women and allow people a choice.

-Darts is sex segregated. Men have greater throwing power. You do not know enough to be posting on this subject.

• Nice try. The problem isn't that we think trans people are all committing violent crime. (By the way, which sex class do you think is perpetuating the most violent crime on trans people? Go on, take a wild guess. I'll wait. And how many websites frequented by members of that sex class are you lecturing about inclusiveness and niceness?) We are saying that as our rights and protections are eroded, the way becomes clear for violent men to gain access to us by merely claiming they are women. It's already happened. Believe me, if you were a woman, you'd have an awareness of the level of threat and you wouldn't need to be told. The ignorance you display about it frankly makes you utterly unfit to comment on it. You heard of #MeToo, I assume. Gotta love the way you ask for stats, are given them and then decide the website isn't right.

So, are you straight? If so, are you inclusive enough to sleep with transwomen?

I don’t believe i have ever read a post saying that ‘all/ the majority of trans people are committing violent hate crimes’….ever!

Just that nicegerbil. Just all of that

In some countries some 200 million people have FGM.

who are these people ?