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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Teaching children to recognise the sex of individuals

55 replies

AntiHumbug · 25/06/2021 10:50

I am a TA in a Special Needs Unit, 1:1 supporting children with ASD. I work in KS1. How do I teach children to recognise and differentiate between girls and boys, and use pronouns correctly, without resorting to stereotypes?

OP posts:
WarOnWoman · 25/06/2021 12:42

OP, I just remembered that in the autumn term I have to do receptive language assessment on children and the pictures are very obviously stereotypically boys/girls in the pronouns pictures. At this stage of their development I think stereotyped pictures are needed because you have to start right from scratch.

Avocadowoman · 25/06/2021 12:31

If I understand you correctly, the situation is something like this:

You: Can you read this?
Child: Wilma rode her bike to the park.
You:Well done:
Child:Did he ride it back again?
You:Did she ride it back again? Yes I think she did.
Child:Why is it she?
You: Because Wilma is a girl
Child:How can I tell?
You:?

Is that it?
If so - the answer is - for most people you know. If you don't know you can ask. If it is a picture the book might tell you. Most names a either usually for girls or usually for boys, but some are not. It is always OK to ask if you don't know.

Would that work?

WarOnWoman · 25/06/2021 12:30

@AntiHumbug

It's because of their ASD. The current debate is what has made me aware that I use stereotypes to teach this.

I'm not sure the normal rules apply for teaching young children and children with autism about boys/girls and he/she. If it's a SALT specific activity with pictures then the boys/girls would have to be stereotypical looking for teaching about the pronouns. I am not sure there is a way around it. Well, I can't think of one atm.

However, the activities they are doing in the pictures can be mixed up. She is a doctor, astronaut/she is playing with construction, trains. He is dressing up as a princess/playing in the home corner. etc.

AntiHumbug · 25/06/2021 12:24

Feminism separates sex from stereotypes. I posted here because I am struggling to do so in my teaching.

Some posters seem to think this is about self-ID. It is not. This is about 5-6-7 years old children with specific educational needs. This is about teaching them to communicate in a world that they struggle to understand and that struggles to understand them. This is about clarity of language.

Maybe I need to post this in Staffroom or SN.

OP posts:
ool0n · 25/06/2021 12:15

@AntiHumbug

I am a TA in a Special Needs Unit, 1:1 supporting children with ASD. I work in KS1. How do I teach children to recognise and differentiate between girls and boys, and use pronouns correctly, without resorting to stereotypes?
Self identification as everyone already does, if the story refers to Wilma as she then that's her pronoun. If you want to get to a point where people are not gendered based on stereotypes then asking and self identification is the only way. Not sure? Ask what pronouns someone uses. Biff is stereotypically a "boys" name, but she uses she/her, great lesson for the kids. I also make sure my daughters know about non-binary people, some people's pronouns may be they/them as well as the more commonly used ones.
SirVixofVixHall · 25/06/2021 12:09

Heading off to find my long lost cousin Bunbury.

SirVixofVixHall · 25/06/2021 12:08

And yes it does say something about my character. It says I am not a twat.

Tuberoses · 25/06/2021 12:07

Stereotypes are stereotypes precisely because the vast majority of people conform to them. In general, stereotypes plus secondary sex characteristics are the main way we identify people, and in most cases we’ll be correct. I think that’s fine as long as you’re also highlighting that some people don’t conform and that’s ok too.

SirVixofVixHall · 25/06/2021 12:07

Go rogue ? Eh what now ?
You clearly have absolutely no experience of children with severe autism.

AntiHumbug · 25/06/2021 12:06

Please ignore the poster trying to derail the thread into a debate about trans ideology. It's their usual MO.

OP posts:
334bu · 25/06/2021 12:06

But the phrasing made it unclear whether the OP wanted to teach their students to intentionally misgender trans people.

Olympic level jump in thinking here.

yeahbutnaw · 25/06/2021 12:00

@SirVixofVixHall You think it's ethical for a teacher to go rogue and teach children to intentionally misgender trans people?

That says a lot about your character.

yeahbutnaw · 25/06/2021 11:59

@InvisibleDragon

yeahbutnaw

Using pronouns correctly can be hard for children with autism, even when referring to people who are not trans.

Most children learn without needing explicit teaching that Mr Jones is "he" and Emily is "she". But some children with autism find this harder. They might use "he" for everyone, or rely on an unreliable cue - like wearing a school summer dress - to distinguish boys and girls.

If explicit teaching is needed, it might require some fairly crude stereotypes at the beginning: Mr Jones has a beard so you can see he is a man and you say "he"; Emily is wearing a dress so she is a girl and you use "she". But it is important to teach this stuff, even if it seems a bit cringey - you don't want a vulnerable young person to be put at risk because they either inadvertently refer to a man with a female pronoun and get beaten up; or because they aren't able to recognise a dangerous situation. We teach young children not to get in a car with / accept food from / go off with a strange man as basic safeguarding. But that relies on being able to explain to a child which people are men and which are women.

That's fine.

But the phrasing made it unclear whether the OP wanted to teach their students to intentionally misgender trans people.

I just wanted to clarify that this isn't the case because it would be incredibly unethical.

SirVixofVixHall · 25/06/2021 11:59

@yeahbutnaw

Can you clarify what you mean by "using pronouns correctly"?

Surely you mean using the pronouns that each student/teacher has requested they be referred to by? You don't intend to teach your students to misgender trans students/teachers, do you?

What ? You think trying to get autistic children to recognise the nebulous “gender identity “ is more important than them understanding sex ?
InvisibleDragon · 25/06/2021 11:53

yeahbutnaw

Using pronouns correctly can be hard for children with autism, even when referring to people who are not trans.

Most children learn without needing explicit teaching that Mr Jones is "he" and Emily is "she". But some children with autism find this harder. They might use "he" for everyone, or rely on an unreliable cue - like wearing a school summer dress - to distinguish boys and girls.

If explicit teaching is needed, it might require some fairly crude stereotypes at the beginning: Mr Jones has a beard so you can see he is a man and you say "he"; Emily is wearing a dress so she is a girl and you use "she". But it is important to teach this stuff, even if it seems a bit cringey - you don't want a vulnerable young person to be put at risk because they either inadvertently refer to a man with a female pronoun and get beaten up; or because they aren't able to recognise a dangerous situation. We teach young children not to get in a car with / accept food from / go off with a strange man as basic safeguarding. But that relies on being able to explain to a child which people are men and which are women.

AntiHumbug · 25/06/2021 11:49

It's because of their ASD. The current debate is what has made me aware that I use stereotypes to teach this.

OP posts:
AntiHumbug · 25/06/2021 11:48

And, yes, of course I model and reflect back appropriate language. That's definitely bread-and-butter!

OP posts:
lazylinguist · 25/06/2021 11:47

Interesting question. Can I ask - is this something you find you need to do because the children you support are (and always would have been, even before the gender debate) because of their ASD, unable to differentiate between girls and boys, women and men in the way that most other children and adults are normally able to very well? Or is it something you need to do specifically because the current issues around gender, preferred pronouns etc are making this difficult for them?

AntiHumbug · 25/06/2021 11:46

Wilma is a very uncommon name. Most children only encounter it in the ORT books. Like Kipper it will be gender-neutral to them.

Autistic children can have great difficulty generalising knowledge. The fact that Wilma is 'she' in the books, doesn't mean that they understand 'she' is a girl. Some things have to be implicitly taught over and over again.

I am working with under-7s. An age group where they are only just beginning to understand that sex is constant and not dependent upon clothing. The specific children I work with are even more immature.

The SALT gives me a pack of cue cards, generally photos and drawings, and tells me teach the child to use the appropriate pronouns through discussion of the pictures. (These pictures may be used for development of other language aspects as well.)

But young children are androgynous. All the visual cues are stereotypes.

OP posts:
yeahbutnaw · 25/06/2021 11:36

Can you clarify what you mean by "using pronouns correctly"?

Surely you mean using the pronouns that each student/teacher has requested they be referred to by? You don't intend to teach your students to misgender trans students/teachers, do you?

WarOnWoman · 25/06/2021 11:33

Let’s not bring misgendering as an issue into KS1. He/she/it (for animals we don’t know the sex of) is fine. Adult modelling correct language and correcting misconceptions are bread and butter of teaching.

AssassinatedBeauty · 25/06/2021 11:25

Well, for Biff, Chip and Kipper the clues will be in the text. Chip and Kipper are referred to as "he", Biff and Wilma as "she". For their classmates, use "he" or "she" if they know the child and know whether they are a boy or girl because they've said so. If they don't know, then use "they" until they get any further information.

WarOnWoman · 25/06/2021 11:24

Wilma is a gir’s name. Kipper is Kipper. Most children say he for animals. I always say how do you know it’s a boy? It generates a discussion.

AntiHumbug · 25/06/2021 11:21

DYAC

Sex ed is not part of my remit, so unless the child tells me (and some do) that boys have willies and girls have different bits, this never gets mentioned. In any case, genitals are not helpful when learning to describe Wilma as 'she' and Kipper as 'he'. Or their own classmates.

OP posts:
WarOnWoman · 25/06/2021 11:21

I would just model the language. If they say “she took my pen” you say “yes he took your pen.” Sometimes I qualify it by saying “Ben is a boy so we say he.” Very common in young children and some children who speak a different language at home. Lots of children think a girl is a boy or vice versa if they have short hair/long hair. I just say “Anne is a girl who has short hair” or “Terry is a boy. Some boys have long hair”.