Is it ok to deceive a sexual partner about your biological sex?

Prosthetic leg? Mastectomy bra? Denture? Do they also have to be declared?

What impact does this have on a person's sexual orientation?

Lightbulb moment! Ignore my previous posts.

I thought I was presenting the devil's advocate view in order to explore all possibilities - an open mind. But I wasn't. I was Being Kind.

I have been thinking like a person who wants sexual encounters to be mutually pleasing. And anyone who truly sought mutual pleasure would be honest - whether about their genitals, their trans status, or their prostheses.

Lack of openness and of honesty is all about power in these situations. It's nothing to do with privacy or the understanding that everyone involved is open to the possibilities available.

Prosthetic leg? Mastectomy bra? Denture? Do they also have to be declared?

(TBH I cannot imagine anyone with a prosthesis not declaring it, simply to avoid the hurt of rejection mid-foreplay.)

Ha, after me being a bit scoldy to others about talking about a specific case I did it myself. Sorry I thought I was on the other thread. Oops. I'll report it .

This is what meant to say here

tried to find this out yesterday and not one person answered my question of 'why don't you think you need to disclose, or think it is respectful to disclose'

Interesting they won't come here and explain @Helleofabore isn't it?
I think were distracting by bad people, cocaine, garages and violence so as to avoid the central issue. Consent.
Shame to see so many deletions, raped women should be given more leeway to express our pain and anger when discussing consent issues I think.

Not to concentrate to much on case recently in the news, but to look overall at how a victim of rape by deception (or any other sexual assault) , in particular a female one, may be treated by police, CPS and judiciary it is worth concentrating again at the judge's statements that prompted this discussion. The "finding out was transgender" refers to feeling a penis and testicles.

These all refer to a biological male. A woman could be a victim of crime by a biological male and have to listen to the judge describe the person in these terms.

"You were even happy to entertain his girlfriend
you were in the company of an attractive woman

undeniably attractive woman was transgender," the judge said

no concern at all for the woman

You threw words around like 'deceit'. You accused her of raping you

She is a woman, that is how she identifies

And this horrendous bit of rape apologia
Judge Knott added: "Frankly, if you weren't prepared to take the time to know more about her that is on you

Maybe you will be a bit more careful in the future. You discovered in your mind too late

And to comment on I'm trying to explore whether declaring your trans status must be a blanket rule.

To me, this is not about someone's trans status. This is about honesty around genitals, type of sexual activity that is expected/reality, and respect for someone's sexual orientation.

And to me, this also includes knowing whether the prospective sex partner has a neo-vagina/penis. Absolutely this should be disclosed too. These are body parts that will be in intimate contact with another person's body parts, and in the case of piv, very intimate body parts.

Why doesn't a sex partner deserve to know that the body part that they are in contact with is different in this way than what they are expecting? And before sex starts.

So, I have seen a great deal of twisting on this topic. I am sorry if I sounded like I was directing my ire at you. I am just quite disturbed that there are posters who have argued vehemently (ie. not you) that knowing the sex of the person you are having sex does not need to be disclosed in casual sex situations.

It is never ok.

Consent should never be based on anything other than absolute trust.

Lying, misrepresentation or omission of something so fundamentally important to many means that consent waters are absolutely muddied.

I'm trying to explore whether declaring your trans status must be a blanket rule

Not your "trans status" that is meaningless and so not relevant, especially in these days of non binary, gender fluid, transfemme demigirls and aromantic catboys. Your sex, sex is very very important in sexual behaviour of any kind. Sexual orientation, sexual intercourse, oral sex, anal sex etc. The word sex crops up a lot because they are all to do with sex.

Here's Stonewall's para on their 'A Vision for Change' doc [emphasis mine]:

'SEX BY DECEPTION
Recent ‘sex by deception’ cases involving trans people and gender identity issues have revealed an alarming lack of
clarity around trans people’s rights and obligations to disclose or not disclose their trans history to their sexual partners.
These cases demonstrate that it is possible for non-disclosure of a person’s trans status to impair the validity of consent.
This leaves a great many trans individuals at risk of prosecution for a criminal offence. It is, however, still unclear as to
whether the courts regard this to be the case for a trans person who has undergone medical transition, and it is further
greyed by whether or not an individual can be defined as trans, based on their appearance, by the court. Clarity is
urgently needed.'

www.stonewall.org.uk/vision-change

blogs.lse.ac.uk/equityDiversityInclusion/2017/05/a-vision-for-change-and-stonewall-supporting-the-advancement-of-trans-equality/

I'm trying to explore whether declaring your trans status must be a blanket rule.

Frame it as 'ensure you don't violate another person's protected characteristic of sexual orientation' - does that clarify it for you?

What I had meant was that everyone, regardless of whether the encounter is anonymous and fleeting or part of a new long term relationship, deserves to be able to consent to having sex that is safe and within their boundaries
Absolutely this.

Just thinking could it be the problem that a transwoman or transman believes they are the opposite sex so see no need to declare it? They don't believe they are decriving. What about non binary people how do they fit into deception? Unless it is by sex it is very confusing and Stonewall trying to make a hash of consent is scary.

I am finding it really uncomfortable the drift of judgement occurring around this discussion that people who have casual sex encounters 'deserve' what they get which is how is it all coming across to me.*

I'm absolutely not saying this.

I'm trying to explore whether declaring your trans status must be a blanket rule.

There's possibly a bit of devil's advocate going on here as well, because I am firmly gender critical.

But people have sex without even knowing their partner's name

Pretty sure most people wouldn’t care what the name of their hook up is. Knowing their name wouldn’t make them change their mind about what’s going to happen.

“You’re called Sheila?” Right that’s it, I don’t want to do it anymore…. Not problematic.

Knowing someone was born a different sex than the one they identify as, could be a problem for some people. No all, but some.

I'm just pondering the idea that that the responsibility should be on the het person to ask if it's important to them. I can imagine a man asking a potential sexual partner are you a transwoman would go down like a lead balloon.

Sex by deception is wrong and should be a criminal offence.

Definitely not okay! At first I thought you meant, does a trans person (fully transitioned) have to declare they were previously the opposite, then I would say no.

But people have sex without even knowing their partner's name

Its not like not knowing someone's name at all. One knows if one doesnt know someone's name.

One example, a lesbian in a state of undress, having been touched in various ways and received oral sex finding a surprise cock and balls in the dark is nothing at like that. It is sexual assault by deception. I say the same even if is a straight male victim though the power dynamic is different.

What kind of motivation is there to try and make this acceptable? Who on earth is going to benefit from having sex with someone who would never have done it had they known?

We can all guess what kind of person would want this. Maybe S Whittle might design to visit us again to clarify whether our guesses are right or wrong. SW is a mumsnetter so maybe could start a thread explaining the theory, is a law lecturer after all.

I believe that even those people deserve to be able to consent to having sex that is safe and within their boundaries.

Oh dear. I just read this back and I wrote 'even those people' in response to the tone being used and not my judgement of those who desire this type of encounter as a fully capable adult.

I am finding it really uncomfortable the drift of judgement occurring around this discussion that people who have casual sex encounters 'deserve' what they get which is how is it all coming across to me.

What I had meant was that everyone, regardless of whether the encounter is anonymous and fleeting or part of a new long term relationship, deserves to be able to consent to having sex that is safe and within their boundaries.

This is what happened, when an Australian transwomen attacked people with an axe after being rejected by a woman on Tinder, after the woman found out that Amati was transgender.
Of course it is wrong for people to attempt to deceive others.

www.buzzfeed.com/lanesainty/evie-amati-7eleven-axe-attack-sydney-appeal-sentence

Just because someone partakes in a sexual encounter with someone, doesn’t mean they fancy them or are attracted to them physically.

Some will sleep with anyone, even if they don’t find them attractive. Possible and ego thing, notches on the bed post, perhaps they want to get experience…..

Also, how many people wake up the next day and think ‘omg what have I done?’ They had their beer goggles on and in the cold light of day, they wouldn’t chose to get intimate with the particular person they’ve woken up next to. Drink has a lot to answer for and it does affect judgment.

It shouldn’t automatically be assumed that someone is attracted to someone, simply on the back of them sleeping with them, especially if there’s drink involved.

There’s many people that will wake up on a Sunday Monday and cringe at who they have slept with.