Is it ok to deceive a sexual partner about your biological sex?

"I'm male by the way. Do you still want to have sex with me?"

"I'm male the way. Do you still want to have sex with me?"

If you think you're about to have sex with a woman and it's actually a man, then it isn't consensual.

This comes back to the issue of personal responsibility. If someone decides to have sex with someone else, this is an active decision. It's reasonable to expect the person to 'do their research' beforehand.

As I keep saying, context is everything. This isn't about someone who's been lied to, or lied to by omission. This is about someone falling into bed with someone else at the drop of a hat, not bothering to get to know them, and then being surprised that the person wasn't entirely as they expected.

There is an increasing tendency for people not to take responsibility for their own actions - and it is your own action if you engage willingly in sexual activity - and to seek to blame anyone but themselves when things don't turn out as they want.

@hivpos

How often are people being tested that they can be confident that the viral load remains undetectable?

Unless it is incredibly frequently, not disclosing is absolutely outrageous.

Because many people consider both to be things that should be disclosed, and think it is highly immoral not to.

It's also the case that some groups, like SW, want to argue that both things are ok.

So a pretty reasonable comparison of an area of controversy over disclosure and it's relation to consent, my point being that while many people think it is obvious that you should be obligated to disclose, some do not, and they tend to feel that about a variety of similar situations.

@SmokedDuck I’m not sure who you mean by “many people”. But in the case of HIV (which as previously mentioned the vast majority are unable to pass it on so no risk) why and how is it immoral given that this is a ONS scenario? It’s actually akin (to make a comparison with another latent virus) to having to disclose to having had chicken pox.

Btw we do have proof positive of no risk - endorsed by all world health organisations: i-base.info/htb/32308
We do also have the law which means those of us who are no risk do not legally have to disclose as we can’t pass it on: www.tht.org.uk/hiv-and-sexual-health/living-well-hiv/legal-issues/how-law-works

Of course the law can differ in other countries such as those in the Middle East that prefer to stigmatise those living with HIV.

Now in a relationship, morality and sharing status and any other information is a whole different ballgame.

It’s important to have context.

Confused by a few things.

-Who is from Iran?

-Stonewall are trying to make it fine to HIV+ people to not declare that to sexual partners before they could pass it on and make someone else ill. You'd want to be a right shower of f*ckers to campaign for that.

-Being misleading about your sex before engaging in sexual activity with someone is deception by omission. I think the issue is so basic that it should be disclosed.

And? If I quote my DH or any other male saying differently it cancels her DH out, no? If she wants her DH to share his important perspective, he should post on the thread.

It no more cancels an opinion than any poster expressing an opinion contrary to one previously expressed. It's the nature of debate - people express different opinions. Debate is not about cancelling opinions - on the contrary, it's about stimulating discussion.

As for the DH posting on the thread - surely, that's up to him. Personally, I'd no more try to persuade my husband to set up a MN account than I'd try to stop him - one can reasonably assume the husbands being quoted have access to the internet - if they're stimulated by their wives' commentary to post in person, all well and good - if not, that's up to them.

Then no, it isn't. This is a general principle of mine which applies to both sexes, so posters' friends and family who have views about individual cases are unconvincing to me.

This question only requires Yes or No answers.

No need for argy bargys.

Posting the expressed opinion of your partner is no less valid than anyone posting their personal opinion.

And? If I quote my DH or any other male saying differently it cancels her DH out, no? If she wants her DH to share his important perspective, he should post on the thread.

A man's reaction to this seems worth considering.

Your man's. Sure.

@QuentinBunbury

Its not a male context. Its a context from an Internet random claiming her husband thinks it

There's little point in participating in a forum discussion if you're going to start from an assumption of bad faith.

Its not a male context. Its a context from an Internet random claiming her husband thinks it

The argument that a male perspective is irrelevant totally ignores context - as do many of the views expressed on this thread.

There seems to be a rigid definition of consent, and a rigid definition of whose view on what constitutes consent is allowable.

Me too! I particularly enjoy it on the feminism board. It's so refreshing when women share their husbands' perspectives. As if their own weren't enough to make an argument

The hypocrisy in that is breathtaking- but never mind- hypocrisy on here is hardly unusual.

A man's reaction to this seems worth considering.

its deceptive not to say . there was a case in the united states about a young transgender girl , she had failed to disclose to the bkoke she was seeing that she was actually male , she had not had surgery and had so far avoided any heavy sexual encounters by blaming her period , there was a party , his friends had made comments which he couldnt ignore , a terrible scene followed and of course her secret was out , its been a good few years since i watched it , but if i remember rightly she was beaten to death , it was on one of the crime and investigation serious on sky , it was so awful it really was . and she was very young too .

[quote Manteiga]@WanderinWomb, I mean the particular case of a drunken man receiving fellatio from a complete stranger whom he wrongly assumed was a woman. No women involved at all.[/quote]
That isn't in the OPs question.

No particular case was mentioned. It was a general question of consent.

Is there a particular reason you want to talk about one specific instance and from a male perspective on this thread rather than answer the question that was inspired by Judge Knott's statement?

Eresh

Apropos of nothing. I did a snort, and said out loud "chinny reckon" at least three times this evening.

Why not start a thread particularly about male family members perspectives on rape by deception or rape apologia re casual sex

Or why not add it to the existing thread and sensibly keep the discussion in one place? We are only at 193 posts on this thread, so it isn't as though we are fighting for space before the thread fills up. Anyone who doesn't feel posters' male relatives' experiences are relevant is free to ignore them.

I would argue that the situation doesn't matter. That there is no context in which is it ok to deceive a sexual partner about your biological sex. Even if it's a quickie against a toilet wall.

I think the situation is very relevant. Firstly, can we be sure it's conscious deceit? In the situation of a quickie at a party/nightclub/whatever, when people have been drinking, is it realistic to expect the transperson to know exactly who was listening at any given point when their trans status came up in conversation? Does the transperson necessarily flatter themselves that they pass so well as to be totally indistinguishable from their transgender?

Secondly, is it wrong to expect a degree of personal responsibility here? We are not talking about someone engaging in an activity totally unrelated to sex, and finding sex forced upon them (e.g. someone being assaulted when walking home in the dark). We are talking about someone soliciting and welcoming sexual activity - is there not some onus on them to do some due diligence with regard to biological sex? Or, they can accept the risk - as countless people (me included) have accepted that there are risks in a casual encounter, taking appropriate precautions (e.g. condoms) - that consensual sex with a stranger, or virtual stranger, is never going to be a risk-free activity.

It's hardly unreasonable to ask for a male perspective when this debate was inspired by the experience of a male

You may not remember the opening of the deleted thread but I do, it was all about concerns over Judge Knott's statements .

Why not start a thread particularly about male family members perspectives on rape by deception or rape apologia re casual sex.

Maybe make a poll . We can all then provide answers on male loved ones behalves. Perhaps on AIBU for "exposure"
If you do it, I'll make some phone calls to chaps and report back.