Is it ok to deceive a sexual partner about your biological sex?

Are you suggesting the trans woman forced the thug's penis into her mouth?

It's not that. Women on here don't tend to quote their husbands as an authority to back up their arguments. Particularly legal ones, as the board is often heaving with lawyers

That is simply not true.

And how patronising to assume I was using him to "back up my argument". The reference was to the specific reaction of the male thug in that particular case to the reaction of another heterosexual man. The fact he is a heterosexual man who also understands criminal law was an aside.

Oh and the boards might "be heaving with lawyers" - there's also a fair number who pontificate with zero understanding of legal issues - e.g all the posters on the deleted thread going on about the thug being "raped" .

A 'quick blow job'? Are you saying that the duration of the sex act has any bearing on the need for consent?

www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2013/1051.html

There is a world of difference between the situation described in that case and a quick blow job from a person barely any time after first meeting them. From that guidance I don't think there is any grounds to bring a case in the latter situation.

Does solicitor hubble have something he'd like to add?

The hypocrisy on this thread is awesome. I'm sure if "hubble" was "gender critical" he'd be welcome with open arms.

Sorry. Tinker Bell.

if a man really, truly, believes he's he's a woman at heart, there's no question of deception

Ah. The Tinkerbelle Theory of Identity. If you clap really really hard...

if a man really, truly, believes he's he's a woman at heart, there's no question of deception

Mr Average doesn't shag a woman's heart, he shags her vagina. Ergo, she needs to have one. What she believes is neither here nor there, it's what actually is that matters.

I'm not saying transpeople aren't entitled to find love. They just need to be open about who they are. It's the same for the rest of us. Don't deceive the people you want to be close with.

So, deception extends to yourself, it is ok to deceive other people? Does that work in other areas of law.

I believed that very expensive sapphire necklace was truly mine, so I took it home in my pocket of course.

CPS: Ah, not straightforward theft look at the context.

I was wondering what the law said, and noticed that @ArabellaScott kindly provided a link to CPS guidance.

www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/rape-and-sexual-offences-chapter-6-consent

A decision to prosecute should take into account

"The nature and level of the relevant sexual activity;

The nature and duration of any relationship between the suspect and complainant"

That seems reasonable to me. But there's more that's very concerning. The section is titled "Gender Deception", and under "Evidentiary Requirements" it says

"Whether there has been deception as to gender will require very careful consideration of all the surrounding circumstances including:

How the suspect perceives his/her gender;

What steps, if any, he/she has taken to live as his/her chosen identity; and

What steps, if any, he/she has taken to acquire a new gender status."

I'm not a lawyer, but is it saying if a man really, truly, believes he's he's a woman at heart, there's no question of deception?

I don’t think it’s possible to simultaneously stress the importance of consent and claim that sex is irrelevant.

Either a prospective sexual partner won’t care, and then it doesn’t matter if sex is revealed, or they will care and it should be revealed. There is no right to sex.

Its simple. You shouldn't lie about your sex.

Maybe they will stop. Maybe they will be ok with it. Either way that needs to be based on truth. Consent matters.

Namenic

I think the vast majority of people have a preference as to the biological sex of the people they sleep with. Biological sex is at the very centre of sexuality.

What is relevant info to one person is not necessarily relevant to another. Some people already have contraception, so don’t need to ask partner. Some people at ok with any sex, some people are not. Some people only wish to have sex with people who have been vaccinated for covid.

Someone brought up the point about marital status as being relevant. Does that mean that all those married affair partners who lie to their fling AND spouse have assaulted them. I would think yes - and would hope they could be sued for it - especially risk of STDs.

As I keep saying, context is everything. This isn't about someone who's been lied to, or lied to by omission.

Yes it is. This is not about that specific case, but in any case the person choosing to have casual sex with people does not negate their right to consent.

Or are we back to the 'one mouth is much the same as any other' argument that someone made on the deleted thread?

I think we are.

@WanderinWomb, I was responding to someone who was responding to someone else who brought it up. And I do think it's germane to a question posed in the first post - "Does the nature of the encounter matter?"

Withholding a pertinent truth is lying by omission.

True that you takes your chances when the people involved don't even know each other. That applies to both of the people involved. If you don't know how the other person feels about same sex intimacy. They may see any misrepresentation as a violation, you don't know how they will react, and it may be a risky business to not reveal you are the same sex as them at the outset.

[quote Micemakingclothes]@hivpos

How often are people being tested that they can be confident that the viral load remains undetectable?

Unless it is incredibly frequently, not disclosing is absolutely outrageous.[/quote]
@Micemakingclothes we are tested every 6 months and absolutely confident. All the studies that have been done over the years are mentioned in the link above. Keep in mind that generally medics don’t tend to use the word “zero” risk, it’s rather low, slight or negligible. However in this case they do use this word, and as mentioned all major world health organisations have endorsed that once on effective medication the virus can’t be passed on.

Medication, science and knowledge has moved on over the years and although a lot of awareness has been raised there’s still so much more to do if we’re to reach zero new infections and zero stigma by 2030, something backed by the government.

I’ve done a few threads on this in the past including this one if you want to know more, there’s really no need to be outraged 🙂 www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3631563-To-think-that-more-people-know-about-Undetectable-equals-Untransmittable-attempt-2

PurpleHoodie I'm not sure who you're asking but - HIV Positive - yes, as long as we use a condom. Male/female - if I fancied you enough to get to the stage of possible sex, it's not going to stop me if your biological sex doesn't match the gender you present as. I'm female but I certainly don't see a penis as essential for sexual gratification.

"I'm female. Do you still want to have sex with me?"

"I'm HIV positive. Do you still want to have sex with me?"