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Original poster

Is it ok to deceive a sexual partner about your biological sex?

290 replies

Clymene · 24/06/2021 21:13

This is not a TAAT but that is about a horrible violent attack and this question is quite separate.

In any sexual encounter, do you have the right to expect the other person to disclose their biological sex if they visually appear to be of the other sex?

Essentially, does a lesbian have the right to be upset if the person they were female before they got naked has a penis?

Does a gay man have the right to know that someone who appears to be male has a vagina before he has sex?

Does the nature of the encounter matter? If it's a casual encounter, is the onus on the person who appears to be the other sex to come clean in advance, or is it the responsibility of the other person to check before proceeding?

OP posts:
Datun · 26/06/2021 18:48

@Arbadacarba

Ah, OK - I've found a piece in The Sun which says 'During the encounter, he reached down and realised she had male genitals.'

Sood was initiating the genital contact, if that's how it happened.

Isn't having your penis in someone's mouth genital contact?
Arbadacarba · 26/06/2021 18:45

Ah, OK - I've found a piece in The Sun which says 'During the encounter, he reached down and realised she had male genitals.'

Sood was initiating the genital contact, if that's how it happened.

Original poster
Clymene · 26/06/2021 18:39

If you read other articles @Arbadacarba - he realised they had a penis before turning on the light.

It's irrelevant anyway. He did not consent to have sex with someone with a penis. If he had known, he would not have done.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/06/2021 18:34

The point remains. A trans person is by definition not actually the sex they are presenting as. Sex by deception is a crime.

Arbadacarba · 26/06/2021 18:31

@QuentinBunbury

There is a world of difference between the situation described in that case and a quick blow job from a person barely any time after first meeting them. What I don't understand was how the person receiving came to find the person giving had a penis. It does sound like something non consensual happened there.
There's no suggestion of that in the article:

"He later found himself alone with the woman and she performed a sex act on sex on him.

Sood eventually turned on the light and exclaimed "you're a man" before punching her repeatedly and slamming her head down on a washing machine."

It sounds as though the better lighting simply enabled him to see her more clearly.

PurpleHoodie · 26/06/2021 17:50

Eresh

So succinct.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/06/2021 16:35

If you represent yourself other than as your own sex, does that mean you conceal your sex?

Yes. And this is the fundamental problem with TWAW, whatever its adherents say. Most people don't agree.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/06/2021 16:34

I suspect my legal education and experience far exceeds that of many posters.

Right.

Original poster
Clymene · 26/06/2021 16:02

Much as I don't want this thread to be about the other case, it seems abundantly clear that Soolas thought he was being given a blow job by a woman. Had he known the truth, he would not have consented.

Consent obtained by deception is not consent.

OP posts:
Cailleach1 · 26/06/2021 15:10

If you represent yourself other than as your own sex, does that mean you conceal your sex? If you conceal your sex, can the other person consent to something which was kept hidden?

MrsTerryPratchett · 26/06/2021 15:09

Either a prospective sexual partner won’t care, and then it doesn’t matter if sex is revealed, or they will care and it should be revealed. There is no right to sex.

This is the crux of it. It's either extremely important to most people in which case it's fairly key to consent; or it isn't, in which case it shouldn't be an issue to disclose.

Cailleach1 · 26/06/2021 15:06

This is a bit disturbing on all levels. The violence, the deception and the violation.

Who knows what would have played out among these effective strangers if there was no deception involved, or discovered.

ArabellaScott · 26/06/2021 14:55

I wasn't talking about the law, per se. I was talking about the idea that consent can be dismissed as unimportant if it's 'a quick blow job'. I can't speak for males, but presumably most hetero men are not that keen on sex acts with males no matter how 'quick' they are.

KimikosNightmare · 26/06/2021 14:48

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Are you suggesting the trans woman forced the thug's penis into her mouth?

A male person doesn't have to do this Confusedperhaps get your top lawyer husband to teach you about sexual offences legislation?

I suspect my legal education and experience far exceeds that of many posters.
KimikosNightmare · 26/06/2021 14:46

The law requires-did the trans woman have a reasonable belief that the thug consented to the sex act?

In the circumstances here I think she did.

Original poster
Clymene · 26/06/2021 14:37

In the case of Justine McNally, the judgement quotes the Sexual Offences Act:

'"For the purposes of this Part, a person consents if he agrees by choice and has the freedom and capacity to make that choice."

And it also states:

"The case for the Crown was that M's consent was obtained by fraudulent deception that the appellant was a male and that had she known the truth, she would not have consented to acts of vaginal penetration."

That seems pretty clear cut to me. Consent should not be about context as some are arguing. And context was not brought into it by the prosecution either. That was the defence argument - which was rejected by the Court.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/06/2021 14:24

Are you suggesting the trans woman forced the thug's penis into her mouth?

A male person doesn't have to do this Confusedperhaps get your top lawyer husband to teach you about sexual offences legislation?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/06/2021 14:23

What's simply not true? That women on here don't typically invoke their husbands to shore up their arguments or that many women on here are lawyers?

Both those things are true @KimikosNightmare

Indeed.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/06/2021 14:20

Your husband blaming himself has got nothing to do with whether or not sex by deception is acceptable. It isn't.

This. Which was the reason for my original comment.

Manteiga · 26/06/2021 14:11

Thank you @KimikosNightmare. You're right: a world of difference. What bothers me is that the current CPS guidance should imply that it makes any difference at all whether "Scott", in the case you cite, claims to identify as a man rather than admits to pretending to be one.

Wallpapering · 26/06/2021 14:05

Shall I shout over fence to bloke next door ask his opinion before ring my dad back and ask him also likely be sweary answer from dad

By being ok with deception you are also saying it ok for same to happen to women!

Consent what so hard to understand.

QuentinBunbury · 26/06/2021 13:59

There is a world of difference between the situation described in that case and a quick blow job from a person barely any time after first meeting them.
What I don't understand was how the person receiving came to find the person giving had a penis. It does sound like something non consensual happened there.

PurpleHoodie · 26/06/2021 13:53

And of course, women on a feminist board are going to be looking at this through the eyes of a female, not a male. A male deceiving another male is one issue. A male deceiving a female, is quite another. The balance of power will lie, in that case, with the deceiver.

Yes. This. So much.

Datun · 26/06/2021 13:20

@KimikosNightmare

It's not that. Women on here don't tend to quote their husbands as an authority to back up their arguments. Particularly legal ones, as the board is often heaving with lawyers

That is simply not true.

And how patronising to assume I was using him to "back up my argument". The reference was to the specific reaction of the male thug in that particular case to the reaction of another heterosexual man. The fact he is a heterosexual man who also understands criminal law was an aside.

Oh and the boards might "be heaving with lawyers" - there's also a fair number who pontificate with zero understanding of legal issues - e.g all the posters on the deleted thread going on about the thug being "raped" .

Your husband blaming himself has got nothing to do with whether or not sex by deception is acceptable. It isn't.

And of course, women on a feminist board are going to be looking at this through the eyes of a female, not a male. A male deceiving another male is one issue. A male deceiving a female, is quite another. The balance of power will lie, in that case, with the deceiver.

Arbadacarba · 26/06/2021 12:51

None of us who are biologically female can have experience of receiving a blow job - so it's perfectly reasonable to get a view from someone who has.