Thankyou Laurel Hubbard

@One Episode - I'm starting to feel a bit sorry for them too. I was looking up something I wanted to post yesterday, and came across an interview they did in 2017. I'd assumed they were a raging cheat exploiting the IOC rules, but they came across as someone who had well and truly swallowed the kool-aid, and genuinely believed they were doing nothing wrong. It's bizarre - with the weights they're lifting plus their age and history of injury, they would have to believe that they are the best female weightlifter that has ever lived. I really don't think that anyone encouraging them in this belief/endeavour is being kind at all. From the interview, they didn't seem like the sort of person who could take the level of scrutiny that's going to come from making themselves the 'poster girl' for TW in sport.

Personally, I'm hoping that Hubbard wins by a long margin.

Unfortunately, I think Hubbard is a useful Trojan horse. They are an old person in a young person's event. Good enough to beat women down the rankings, but probably not to beat the very best. They will lose, and TRAs will claim that we are all hysterical, and TW in elite sport is nothing to worry about. Then next time, it will be someone in their 20s, who sweeps the board.

That's why there are no TW Olympic medal winners, even though TW have been allowed to compete in the Olympics since 2004. It's because, until the 2015 rule change, they had to have had the bottom surgery. On top of losing testosterone (essential to the metabolic function of a male body) I can't imagine training at an elite level whilst dealing with the aftermath of bottom surgery is all that comfortable. The 2015 rule change, replacing surgery with self ID and reduced testosterone, didn't come in in time for TW to fulfill the test prior to Rio 2016 (I think it takes some time for testosterone levels to drop, plus there was is a 4 year "living as a woman" type clause). Tokyo 2021 is the first real test of the rule change.

Personally, I'm hoping that Hubbard wins by a long margin.

I also hope this is replicated across the other Olympic events.

The world will not be able to not see the unfairness of it all. And then public debate can finally crack wide open. And I'm hoping for an outbreak of common sense on the back of it.

The reason the IOC made this idiotic decision in the first place is because a Canadian cyclist TW, who had had their testes removed, realised their male body could not function at elite athlete level, and therefore they could not compete, without testosterone. They asked the IOC to exempt them from doping regulations so they could take artificial testosterone. At the time, the IOC had permitted only post-op transpeople to compete in the Olympics. The TW athlete was claiming a human rights violation.The IOC did not want to provide this individual with a doping exemption and set a precedent, or get involved in litigation. So instead they adopted Joanna Harper's ridiculous report findings, and switched eligibility to a non surgery, reduced testosterone level based test.

If the testes are removed do males stop producing testosterone?

Not entirely, the adrenal glands would produce a minimal amount - with both balls off testosterone production would be minimal, a man would struggle to maintain an erection and he wouldn't be able to produce sperm. With one it's all ok.

Not sure about Hubbard but the image in the Times would suggest intact, at least from what I can see.

I agree testosterone levels are a red herring, it is male puberty that makes the difference.
However I have a question about testosterone. I saw on twitter s couple of people stating that because Hubbard has had 'bottom' surgery the testosterone levels would be negligible. I'm not interested in debating whether he has or has not had the surgery I just want to know if those comments are factual. If the testes are removed do males stop producing testosterone?

The name we all need to be saying though is Kuinini Manumua. The Tongan weightlifter who lost her space as a result. This is a picture of her.
mobile.twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1406992665644830725

Is there any kind of crowdfunder for Kuinini, to compensate her in some way for the loss of her place? I Looked online but couldn’t find one.

and if she were born in the UK today would most likely be raised as a boy

I'm always confused as to why anyone would think that Semenya was raised 'as a girl'.

Totally agree, but while statistical proof is only slowly becoming available for the transwoman advantage, testosterone is a quantifiable number that can be used to show clear evidence of the unfairness. So, I don't think it's completely useless, just part of a broader picture.

(Obviously anyone with eyes who isn't totally dishonest knows the difference between men and women, but such is the world we live in where people will argue until they're blue in the face and demand 'evidence')

Why the fuck is everybody banging on about testosterone levels? You could remove every testosterone molecule in a man’s body and it still wouldn’t shrink his bloody shoulder girdle or femurs by a millimetre, or lower his lung volume or heart size.
The advantage of being male cannot be removed by tinkering round the edges with hormones. This is a deliberate distraction from the total unfairness of letting men into women’s sport.
Why are the authorities wilfully refusing to see this? Oh, wait…

"An athlete's total testosterone level in serum must remain below 10 nmol/L throughout the period of desired eligibility to compete in the female category."

This was the case when the Olympics were due to be held last year, unless it's changed since then?

www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1091417/ioc-guidelines-transgender-tokyo-2020

I believe 5nmol/L is the lot for male-born DSD athletes like Caster Semenya. 10nmol/L is for transwomen, meaning they are actually permitted higher levels than DSD athletes.

No, I don’t think that’s correct - transwomen have to comply with the 5 nmol/l limit.

www.worldathletics.org/download/download?filename=ace036ec-a21f-4a4a-9646-fb3c40fe80be.pdf&urlslug=C3.5%20-%20Eligibility%20Regulations%20Transgender%20Athletes

DSD athletes are restricted to 5 nmol/l for middle distance events (400m to 1 mile). I’m not sure if they are restricted at other distances though.

What is the response from those championing transwomen athletes to the fact that female to male trans athletes don't turn up in male sports at elite level. Surely this proves the physical advantages/disadvantages irrefutably? But I haven't seen it mentioned much.

My understanding of the Semenya case is that her DSD is a male based DSD

Correct.

and if she were born in the UK today would most likely be raised as a boy.

Certainly the condition would have been identified at birth in routine testing, so there would have been no long-term misconception about them being female, despite initial appearances, and male development would have been expected.

I thought CS has “fathered” biological children with their wife.

That is pure speculation, and there's no evidence for that.

But it is true that males with Semenya's condition often can biologically father children, with medical intervention, so it's not impossible.

When I hear a word, I get an image in my head - the 'mental picture' you mention. I know some people don't, but as far as I know, most people do. So, when people hear the word 'transwoman' - what is the image in their heads?

In the early days, mine was a 'fully transitioned' male - femininely dressed and coifed in business wear, maybe a little short by male standards, quiet and demure and trying not to be noticed. No facial features because this image was not an actual person, just the generic idea from hearing/reading the word.

That's not what image I get these days. I get an image of whoever has been brought to my attention most recently. So, maybe a smirking Joss Prior or combative India Willoughby or even a patient Debbie Hayton. But the point I'm trying to make is that the word-image is no longer a generic imaginary person, but an actual person.

I would imagine that this has been the experience of many people. The generic word-image would more likely have been an old-school transexual - Im not sure many would really have heard of the "particular teenage transgirl" because however high their media profile, media is so fragmented these days it still won't have reached most. The Olympics, on the other hand - that's got real 'reach'.

So now - they've got actual people that are associated with the word, and they will become the word-image. And the one person that has been brought to their attention is - Hubbard. That is who they will see when they hear the word 'transwoman'.

So, yes. Thank you Laurel Hubbard and the IOC.

I do feel sorry for Laurel in some ways. This is Laurel’s dad taking a standard against gay marriage

www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/mayor-stuns-gays-with-abuse-claim/5DS4QWR6IWDHLNGPWKDCWY3JAU/

The reporting of Laurel has been very, very clear that Laurel hasn’t had any surgery.
Laurel will be medicated to lower current testosterone levels.
The latest US military and Joanna Harper/Loughborough study are saying speed is impacted by haemoglobin levels which do reduce (but not to female levels).
But Laurel’s sport is a strength one, and strength is barely changed.

I believe 5nmol/L is the lot for male-born DSD athletes like Caster Semenya. 10nmol/L is for transwomen, meaning they are actually permitted higher levels than DSD athletes. It's worth pointing out that 10nmol/L is actually within normal male ranges not below them, so no intervention is potentially required for a male to complete as a woman.

There's a good thread here with a very enlightening graph! twitter.com/Unity_MoT/status/1407697045897592834

(Plus the fascinating fact that women used to have their own Olympic federation and held 4 international, women's only, Olympic Games during the 1920s/30s). and women's football was really popular and that was stopped. It appears the misogyny has gone underground. No need to prevent women from competing, just replace them and eventually decide there's no need for women's sport because women don't play anymore.