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Original poster

Thankyou Laurel Hubbard

142 replies

ferretface · 24/06/2021 16:38

I am active on a sports related site where there is currently a lively debate on trans inclusion in sport thanks to Ms. Hubbard and the IOC rules which allow her participation.

I think it's the first time I've felt safe to put my views on the importance of sex based categories in sports to my actual name (the site is largely full of reasonable and respectful people, even if there is a lively debate). Even more hearteningly I'm watching the scales drop from some people's eyes as the debate progresses. Once you see the problem, you can't unsee it.

So thankyou, Laurel Hubbard. Just sorry that the Olympic dreams of a young woman in her 20s had to be dashed to give you your spot and give this issue the visibility that will lead to change.

OP posts:
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Original poster
ferretface · 25/06/2021 11:31

Laurel should definitely be featured in that article.

Distance running is an interesting one (I'm a distance runner) as many athletes don't hit their peak until 30s/40s the longer the distance is. Often athletes start out at 5000/10000 metres then move up to the marathon later in their career. The high mileage that gives you success at the marathon has to be worked up to otherwise there's a major risk of injury. That's maybe less the case for Diver who discovered running later than many of her peers but it's the general trend. It's one of the reasons I love running, in most races the top V45s are just as competitive as people in their 20s.

It's definitely NOT the case for weightlifting so Laurel's exceptional performance needs to be highlighted, discussed and studied!

OP posts:
NotBadConsidering · 25/06/2021 11:23

@334bu

Hubbard may well lose because they are in their mid forties and carry a serious injury, so why is nobody commenting on the implausibility of any woman athlete being able to achieve an Olympic place in such circumstances. If Hubbard were a member of the female sex class this would be being splashed across the papers for the miraculous achievement it would be.
Do you mean in an article like this from the BBC a few weeks ago?

www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/57382789

For proof that Olympic dreams can be realised later in life, one need only look at the Australian marathon team for this summer's Tokyo Games. The squad's three female members boast a combined age of 118 with the eldest, Sinead Diver, set to make her Olympic debut at 44. Diver's achievement is certainly remarkable.

andyoldlabour · 25/06/2021 11:13

WarOnWoman

"I'm pretty sure that the Iranian women's football team have a few TW."

No, they don't. A few years ago an Iranian football official turned up at a training session and found a few transgender athletes training with the Iranian women's team. He demanded that they leave the team immediately.
If you want to see cheating, then watch this video of Australian handball player 6' 2" 100kg Hannah Mouncey, playing against the Iranian handball team in 2018.

LadyCatStark · 25/06/2021 10:38

I saw this on a UniLad story about a different transgender person not being allowed to compete (due to their testosterone levels being too high) and it made me chuckle. Interesting, the UniLad angle seemed to be poor trans athlete but all the comments (mainly from men) supported women…

Thankyou Laurel Hubbard
OhDear2200 · 25/06/2021 09:29

Male!!!

OhDear2200 · 25/06/2021 09:28

I would love to see the make athletes make some stand. To say it’s not ok.

Sadly I suspect if men made a stand against it they would be listened to. Because women’s voices just don’t count.

Mumoftwoinprimary · 25/06/2021 09:13

[quote FlyPassed]@Mumoftwoinprimary would you be able to.start a thread with your comment about Nini, or mind if I c & p it?

Everyone who knows Hubbard's name should know Nini's name, too[/quote]
Happy for you to copy and paste. Mad day at work today so if I started one it would be a bit of a “dump and run”. Agree - we should all know Nini’s name.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 25/06/2021 08:58

"Where have the feminists been while all this has been going on?

And if you were to tell them what's been happening, the cancellation, the job losses, the deplatforming from social media, the deleted newspaper comments - they'd dismiss it as implausible conspiracy theory or downright paranoia.

WinterIsGone · 25/06/2021 08:49

Yes, and if Hubbard does lose, or retires injured, I fear people will soon forget about it. Who cares about Nini who didn't get her place. Sad

334bu · 25/06/2021 08:25

Hubbard may well lose because they are in their mid forties and carry a serious injury, so why is nobody commenting on the implausibility of any woman athlete being able to achieve an Olympic place in such circumstances. If Hubbard were a member of the female sex class this would be being splashed across the papers for the miraculous achievement it would be.

FlyPassed · 25/06/2021 08:25

@Mumoftwoinprimary would you be able to.start a thread with your comment about Nini, or mind if I c & p it?

Everyone who knows Hubbard's name should know Nini's name, too

PandorasMailbox · 25/06/2021 08:24

@YouSetTheTone

The comments on the Laurel Hubbard articles in the media, the DM in particular, are 100% outraged but it annoys me when people should say ‘the female athletes should boycott and protest!’ Why is it the women who have to suffer to protest? Why can’t the MEN show solidarity by boycotting and insisting that Hubbard should be competing in their group? Why can’t the audience refuse to buy tickets for that event? Why can’t the organisers step up and say that sports must be firmly segregated by sex? Ffs. Why is it always women who have to make a stand when we’ll be the ones punished or losing out for doing so?
And look what happens to women who do stand up.

The comments which really give me the rage are the blokes who say "Where have the feminists been while all this has been going on?" Hmm

gamerchick · 25/06/2021 08:15

@SecondCityShark

Personally, I'm hoping that Hubbard wins by a long margin.

I also hope this is replicated across the other Olympic events.

The world will not be able to not see the unfairness of it all. And then public debate can finally crack wide open. And I'm hoping for an outbreak of common sense on the back of it.

There's a cynical part of me wondering if they're going to deliberately lose. To show the world they're making a fuss over nothing.
JuneJustRains · 25/06/2021 08:15

they would have to believe that they are the best female weightlifter that has ever lived.

Given they presumably believe themselves female despite the evidence, I suppose believing themselves the best isn’t as great a leap.

toffeebutterpopcorn · 25/06/2021 08:08

You know the difference between someone following the rules and someone exploiting a loophole (or the letter not the spirit of the law).

Igneococcus · 25/06/2021 07:55

I've heard some pretty scathing remarks against Australia and Australians in general based on this incident in the years I lived in NZ and that was years after it happened.
Nothing will change further up if everyone and every country just goes along with it because it is "within the rules".

quiteathome · 25/06/2021 07:54

It is not just testosterone and a male puberty. It is being make full stop.

A couple of years ago I was talking to my children's years r teacher. I made a comment that my daughter's handwriting was much nearer at the same age than my son's.

She said, that is typical. As a general rule bots take longer to develop the fine motor skills as they are developing more muscle mass. Girls don't, so they tend to get those fine motor skills earlier.

I always thought that was interesting. (Son's handwriting is still crap.) Obviously there are exceptions to every rule, and the above is fairly general.

TheTuesdayPringle · 25/06/2021 07:41

@Igneococcus

*I get why NZ is doing this - but I would never have pegged them for that sort of gamesmen/women. It’s just not cricket etc...

It's the rules!*

Under arm bowling was within the rules in 1981, maybe NZ should remember how it feels being at the receiving end of an action that is within the rules but extremely unsporting.

NZ isn't a person with feelings, it's a country. It isn't for one country to go against the code, that has to happen higher up.

Nothing to do with an historical cricket game.

OhHolyJesus · 25/06/2021 07:33

I don't think Hubbard will win, but as Emma Barnett said to Joanna Harper, you can't really make predictions, the fact is Hubbard is competing and that is enough to displace a female. (I'll say her name again, Nini Manumua.)

If this Olympics isn't enough to show it then Paris should do it, there has already been a tweet about it being 'gender neutral'...but I really hope we don't have to wait that long though.

highame · 25/06/2021 07:27

IOC are just so bloody hypocritical. We have had the big speeches about cleaning up sport, Sebastian Coe counts himself as Mr Clean. Drug misuse in sport is so embedded that transwomen is just another way of keeping a clean image whilst cheating. It's women therefore it doesn't matter.

Sport is a dirty business and those at the top are used to bending the rules.

Igneococcus · 25/06/2021 07:27

*I get why NZ is doing this - but I would never have pegged them for that sort of gamesmen/women. It’s just not cricket etc...

It's the rules!*

Under arm bowling was within the rules in 1981, maybe NZ should remember how it feels being at the receiving end of an action that is within the rules but extremely unsporting.

Sophoclesthefox · 25/06/2021 07:00

@TedImgoingmad

Personally, I'm hoping that Hubbard wins by a long margin.

Unfortunately, I think Hubbard is a useful Trojan horse. They are an old person in a young person's event. Good enough to beat women down the rankings, but probably not to beat the very best. They will lose, and TRAs will claim that we are all hysterical, and TW in elite sport is nothing to worry about. Then next time, it will be someone in their 20s, who sweeps the board.

This is my concern. There are quite a few people who manage to believe that it somehow proves the point that there’s no unfairness if an elite young woman who has trained to a peak of physical perfection for her sport can beat a mediocre, aging male bodied athlete who hasn’t had to train as hard, and who isn’t anyway endowed with the same physical blessings that make that woman exceptional in her field.

Nothing to see here.

These people also seem very keen to suppose positive intent, as well. If I were training or representing a trans athlete in the women’s category, I would absolutely advise them to throw a couple of events in order to trigger this exact response: “see? I don’t always win! How can it be unfair?”

Don’t they know that people getting to the Olympics will do pretty much anything they think they can get away with to get there? It’s very naive.

TheTuesdayPringle · 25/06/2021 01:10

@toffeebutterpopcorn

I get why NZ is doing this - but I would never have pegged them for that sort of gamesmen/women. It’s just not cricket etc...
It's the rules!
stickygotstuck · 25/06/2021 00:51

[quote TedImgoingmad]I would highly recommend listening to this interview with Canadian track and field champion, national coach and PhD in Kinesiology, Linda Blade. It gives you the batshit history of how we have got to where we are, and how easily the IOC threw away women's sport, to appease one or two transwomen. (Plus the fascinating fact that women used to have their own Olympic federation and held 4 international, women's only, Olympic Games during the 1920s/30s).

[/quote] Thank you for that link Ted Extremely illuminating. Gobsmacked doesn't begin to cover it!
ferfaffle · 25/06/2021 00:41

Then next time, it will be someone in their 20s, who sweeps the board.

I think the Paris 2024 Olympics are going to be extraordinary.